The Revived Tolkien Trivia

[Grimward]

Argh! (Just kidding, Marky; we've all either done that or come close at some point, I suspect).

There's also this:

They were come to the feet of the Misty Mountains, and the long arms of Nan Curunír stretched down to meet them......'What do you think of that, Gandalf?' asked Aragorn. 'One would say that all the Wizard's Vale was burning.'

The Two Towers, Book III, Chapter VIII, The Road to Isengard, p. 539

*Flips the additional reference to HB for more ammo*

Had both of these when you posted, good sir, but struggled (in vain?) to find a reference to valley and white wizard....

 

[Marky Lazer]

I was actually thinking about Grim's quote, but I can't see how HB's is wrong, can I?

*tosses bell in the middle of HB and Grim* Fight for it, humans!

 

[HareBrain]

Grim should have it, since his quote has both "Wizard" and "Vale", and mine has neither.

But if he hasn't posted a question in two days, I might just jump in

 

[Marky Lazer]

Grim should have it, since his quote has both "Wizard" and "Vale", and mine has neither.

But if he hasn't posted a question in two days, I might just jump in

But I can appoint it, because it was my question. And everyone knows I hate Grim, so you can go, HB.

 

[HareBrain]

Aww, where's the love? Still, I'm not one to refuse. Cheers, Marky!

Who is stated to have been in the world longer than Sauron?

 

[Grimward]

Ouch! Good thing I have this thick, fiery skin...

(Warning: Most of you lot likely won't understand the next statement, but Marky will!)

OK, I promise to think harder about Tolkien's use of shadow. Can I help it if a lot of the ways he did so have already been listed?

And anyways, you answered first, HB, so it's absolutely yours. Marky just wants me to continue making a fool of myself! (Which, as everyone here ALSO knows, is a simple matter of waiting for my next post!)

 

[Marky Lazer]

Ouch! Good thing I have this thick, fiery skin...

(Warning: Most of you lot likely won't understand the next statement, but Marky will!)

OK, I promise to think harder about Tolkien's use of shadow. Can I help it if a lot of the ways he did so have already been listed?

And anyways, you answered first, HB, so it's absolutely yours. Marky just wants me to continue making a fool of myself! (Which, as everyone here ALSO knows, is a simple matter of waiting for my next post!)

You can drop the shadows, Grim. I've moved on (though it don't mean I liked doing so)

 

[Grimward]

All right, back to business....

Who is stated to have been in the world longer than Sauron?

Other than everyone listed on pages 25-9 of The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, you mean? Or are we NOT supposed to infer that, despite the passage about the Maiar coming with the Valar, the Valar entered the world first?

OK, seriously, there's a few interesting interpretations. I don't think this one is what you want, HB, but I'll tender it up anyway....

How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dur; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow;..

The Two Towers, Book IV, Chapter IX, Shelob's Lair, p. 707

A little light on the whole "being in the world before Sauron part, I'd say, especially since she was a child of Ungoliant, who hasn't even come North to Ered Gorgoroth from Avathar yet at the point where Sauron escapes detection by the Valar after the overthrow of Utumno.

 

[HareBrain]

Good efforts Grim, but Sauron needs to be mentioned specifically. And I think the quote about Shelob refers to Mordor, not "the world".

 

[Marky Lazer]

Maybe you're looking for "nameless things" then?

The world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. The are older than he.

Lord of the Rings, Two Towers, The White Rider.

 

[HareBrain]

I'm looking for "been in the world longer" rather than "older", Marky - they could mean the same thing, but they might not.

Still, you're close. And why would Gandalf say something which on the face of it is obviously untrue? Is it because he's heard someone else say something similar ...?

 

[Grimward]

Knew my first submission was really pointed at Mordor, but one tests the waters....

Here's #2 on the possibilities list:

'We cannot go further tonight,' said Boromir. 'Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on the air; and these stones are aimed at us.'

'I do call it the wind,' said Aragorn. 'But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.'

'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name,' said Gimli, 'long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.'

The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter III, p. 282

As you can see, there's references to "in these lands", and while we do learn that Moria existed during the Seige of Beleriand (being one of the original dwarf cities), who is to say one way or another whether the Misty Mountains were already there, or were formed by the destruction of Illuin and Ormal, which event occurs well after the Valar and Maiar have entered the world....

Still, this quote has all the ingredients, so I say, Caradhras!

 

[HareBrain]

That's the one, Grim! Though I think "the things with the voices that may or may not have been the wind" was the answer rather than the mountain itself.

BTW, does anyone have any idea what these things might have been? Tolkien would have had his creation story mapped out when he wrote LOTR, and Gandalf and Aragorn would have known it. So what are they both referring to when they talk about things older than Sauron who live on or under the mountains?

Anyway, Grim, here's an impossibly old bell. Your turn!

 

[Grimward]

Thanks HB. Have pondered, but am at work and without my materials. Will post both thoughts on your question and the next challenge tonight.

 

[Grimward]

Frankly, it's pretty hard to think of something that preceded the Music of the Ainur period, much less something of that pedigree that also receives reference in The Lord of the Rings and could be construed to be anywhere near Caradhras, beneath it, above it, or otherwise....

Onward, ho!

Who's nautical career ostensibly began early?

 

[Clansman]

"Oh! Oh! Oh! Mr. Kotteeerrrrrrrr!" (I know, bad Arnold Horshack imitation, which is probably meaningless for anyone in the UK, and it dates me horribly).

I know the answer, but alas, not the quote. If no one beats me, with luck I'll have it by evening, EST, or midnight GMT for you blokes across the Pond.

 

[Grimward]

At which point we'll say, "Welcome Back"?

*Grim's Groaning Chorus is struck silent*

 

[Marky Lazer]

What's taken you so long, Clammy?

 

[Grimward]

Tsk, Marky. As a founding father of this thread, we view you as above such Clansman-baiting...

So, all, are we waiting for Clanny, in need of clues, or busy with other things (blasted real life requirements!)?

 

[HareBrain]

Clanny said he knew the answer and would tell us later, then he disappeared. Odd behaviour - unless someone *made* him disappear - perhaps someone who didn't want his question answered so quickly?

"Where matter vanishes ..." Just a little suspicious, no?