Why say Tyrion's a Targ?

[johnatthebar]

I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet in this great thread that TYWIN'S DYING WORDS were "You are no son of mine."

I'm not saying it's a certainty, but this seems like a key bit of evidence here.

Emotionally, I'm leaning to Team Boaz here. I'd find it emotionally satisfying if the final camera pans out with the forever unappreciated (except by us) Halfman on the Iron Throne. Obviously he'd be great at it.

 

[Ursa major]

You mean he'd be the first occupant that the Iron Throne wouldn't have to cut down to size...?

 

[Needle]

I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet in this great thread that TYWIN'S DYING WORDS were "You are no son of mine."

I'm not saying it's a certainty, but this seems like a key bit of evidence here.

Emotionally, I'm leaning to Team Boaz here. I'd find it emotionally satisfying if the final camera pans out with the forever unappreciated (except by us) Halfman on the Iron Throne. Obviously he'd be great at it.

Tywin also states at some point "that since I can't prove your not mine."

That has probably been said before, but not by me!

 

[juleska]

Relax. I'm here.

I don't think I'm the first to offer the idea that Tyrion is a Targaryen. But I might be the first to attempt to show how this may be. My hypothesis is...

Aerys, the Mad King, and Tywin, his Hand, seemed to have had a contentious relationship. Tywin clearly showed for twenty years that he was the most capable man in the realm, while Aerys revealed his cruelty and jealousy over Tywin's abilities. Once, when Tywin was off on the King's business, Aerys took Joanna to bed. Willing or unwilling, it does not matter. We know Aerys raped his own Queen/sister. Joanna never spoke of this to Tywin because she knew about the Reynes, the Castameres, and Tywin's father's mistress. She knew that Tywin would not stand for his honor to be besmirched nor stand for his wife to be raped. But alone, House Lannister was no match for the Iron Throne... and Joanna would hate to bring about the destruction of her own house and the murders of her husband, son, and daughter.

Mayhaps, she tried to cleanse herself with moontea. But we know that Tyrion is hard to kill. Mayhaps the moontea malformed his body. Mayhaps Joanna would have smothered Tyrion in his crib and no one would have been wiser. Regardless, Joanna died in childbirth.

Tyrion's hair is so blond, it's almost white... like a Targaryen's would be. Tyrion's eyes are mismatched... one green (like Cersei's) and one black. Arianne notes that Darkstar's eyes appear black, but they're really purple. Maybe Tyrion's other eye is like that.

Tyrion has a fascination with dragons. Tyrion saved KL by using fire... the named champion of Aerys. Aemon called Tyrion "a giant among us." Tywin constantly refered to Jaime as "my son." Tywin refused to give Casterly Rock to Tyrion... if Tywin had any knowledge of anyone besides himself being Tyrion's father, he'd have had Tyrion killed out of hand... no pun intended.

When Aerys refused to marry Rhaegar to Cersei, he called Tywin his servant.

Tyrion told Jon that "all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

Rumors circulated amongst the small folk of KL that Tyrion planned to assume the Kingship.

Tyrion liked sitting on the throne.

If Tyrion is not really Cerse's brother, but half-*******-brother, can he still be the valonqar? Tyrion's Targaryen heritage lends believability to Jaime's role as valonqar.

The last and best evidence for Tyrion to be Aery's ******* is that I want him to be a Targaryen.

So ultimately, there's not a shred of proof. I'm just trying to see how this could happen.

By the way, Kiwi's right. We defenders of irrational and unsubstantiated proposals tend to be fairly obstinate and vociferous.

I totally buy into this theory....hook, line, sinker. I will add just a few small details to the impressive list above:

Joanna died in childbirth. Dany's mother died in childbirth. If you ascribe to the R+L=J theory (I do), Jon's mother died in childbirth. Birthing dragons is tough business, apparently, not surprising that only the tough-as-nails lady from Dorne would be even somewhat up to the task.

Jon and Tyrion together on the Wall in GOT....they hit it off instantly, and certainly inexplicably. Jon was predisposed to dislike Tyrion at first but quickly got over that. They became almost as close as brothers in a very short period of time...such that Tyrion returned to Winterfell and performed some favors at Jon's request, such as designing the special saddle for Bran, and to pass along Jon's words to the family he left behind. They seemed to "get" each other on a fundamental level. Jon hasn't had that kind of easy friendship with anyone else except a handful of his own "half-siblings", particularly Arya, whom we are told is most like her aunt. It tells me their sense of kinship is more than circumstantial.

Tyrion is tough as nails. Despite the numerous attempts to kill him, the little ******* just seems to keep worming his way free. How many times have we seen Dany defy death and destruction in her young life? Same with Jon. Dragons are not to be trifled with.

The dragon must have three heads. We know one of them is Dany. I firmly believe the second is Jon. Tyrion makes sense for the third, to me. And what sweet justice it would be! Suck on THAT, Cersei!

 

[Boaz]

I love the support!

But I confess that I cannot imagine that George Martin will allow Tyrion to achieve widespread popularity or acclaimation as a hero. He'll always be despised by the masses. Tyrion must learn to be satisfied to enjoy the love and gratitude of a handful of people... Kevan, Dany, BFS, Jon, Varys, Aegon, and... Sansa.

 

[juleska]

I love the support!

But I confess that I cannot imagine that George Martin will allow Tyrion to achieve widespread popularity or acclaimation as a hero. He'll always be despised by the masses. Tyrion must learn to be satisfied to enjoy the love and gratitude of a handful of people... Kevan, Dany, BFS, Jon, Varys, Aegon,

Why would being a Targ necessitate acclamation? The Targs have always been both loved and loathed. Some simply loved (Rhaegar), some simply loathed (Aerys) and some a bit of both (Aegon the Conquerer). Dany would be loved, I think, especially after the nightmare that Cersei has been. Jon would be both loved and loathed. Tyrion will always be Tyrion, and people will hate him just for that. But even he is not entirely without friends. It really depends where the story is going but the dragon must have three heads, and unless Baby Aegis somehow survived and is waiting unbeknownst somewhere, who else is a ripe candidate?

and... Sansa.

LOL!

I've read people's comments in various threads here that two reasons Tyrion doesn't work as a Targ are:

1) He is undeniably a Lannister
2) Tyrion would mean there are Targ kids popping up all over the place.

I don't believe either to be true, and I will demonstrate.

On Tyrion being too much of a Lannister:

Tyrion was raised by Lannisters in the heart of the Lannister glory, among the most famous Lannisters there are. Certainly this would have an imprint on his behavior. Don't you think Jon growing up among the Stark kids has left the indelible mark of Ned's unflappable sense of honor on him? This is classic nature vs. nurture, and Tyrion was raised to *be* a Lannister. None of that means it's impossible for him to be half a Targaryen. I mean after all, if the theory is correct he is at least *half* Lannister, just as Jon would be half-Stark.

On the notion of "Too Many Targs", I simply call nonsense. Nearly every Lord and King in this series has at least one *******, most have several. Robert had 16 ******* born children. We are theorizing that Jon is one Targ born out of wedlock between 2 people who loved one another and engaged in a consensual relationship, and that Tyrion is a second Targ born out of wedlock due to (presumably) an act of violence or at least coercion. That's two....and two by different fathers to different mothers. Hardly remarkable when you look at the bounty of bastards Robert left littered across the realm, or the numerous bastards that Oberyn has fathered.

Yes, you may argue that why would two major characters both turn out to be ******* Targs, when all of Robert's bastards have only fleeting moments of exposure. Well that's because the story is called the Song of Ice and Fire, not the Song of Storms and Lions. The story begins when the "usurper's" reign is beginning to crumble, and the last known hope of the Targaryen bloodline is reaching an age to do something about getting their birthright back. If there are a couple of extra Targs running around and they are tied to two of the most influential families in the realm, and this story IS about their return to power....well then it doesn't seem strange at all. It would seem strange and cheap if someone we met only once or twice turned out to be a phantom Targ and just turned up with a dragon egg. I think we all would reject that because this story is so elegantly crafted, and everything that's happened has been built on a subtle network of clues along the way.

No, I think Tyrion has to be a dragon.

 

[Boaz]

SPOILER ALERT for ADWD!

If you do not want to explore the possibility that Tyrion might be half Targaryen... or that another major character might be half Targaryen (in a different way than is commonly thought)... or that anyone could be a Targaryen, THEN STOP READING!

Now, on the the post proper...

Am I right or am I right? When I read that one line... I knew... I knew it!!!

Well, it is as close to a suggestion by GRRM to confirm the theory that Aerys is Tyrion's father.

On page 577 of my American hardback, Ser Barristan tells Dany, "Prince Aerys... as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock..."

I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. Is that not almost proof that Aerys raped her? No? Well read on...

"... of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister."

Aha! Joanna, Tyrion's mother!

"...of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the frist night had been abolished."

Prima Nocte?!?! That's legalized rape! I knew it! Aerys lusted after Joanna from the start!

"...abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the... the liberties your father took during the bedding."

If there was such enmity between Aerys and Tywin, why did Aerys II ask Tywin to be his Hand? Tywin was only twenty years old. He was not a battle veteran... except for annihilating the Reynes and the Tarbecks. With his riches, he might have been better as Master of Coin. Why did Aerys II ask Tywin to be his Hand?

Why? Because Aerys lusted after Joanna. Because he was born to think of everything as his birthright. But he asked Tywin to be his Hand because that is the only position that Tywin Lannister's pride would ever allow him to take. Tywin, though fabulously rich, would never have consented to serve as Master of Coin.

In Tywin's pride and lust for power, he put his wife in harm's way. I think this really opens the door for the possibilities that none of Tywin's children are of his blood. And I think this and Dany's conception by rape also keeps alive the idea that Aerys is Jon's father as well. Crazier still, could Aerys have fathered Aegon as well?
I am so smart! S, M, R, T!!!

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Woah, you just did two things, Boaz.
1) You opened the door for massively insane (haha) speculation on Aerys' sexual predations.

2) You backed me up in my assumption of the third head being Tyrion.

You know what though? I'd already speculated as much, but now it's pretty much proven in my eyes. It explains why Tywin marched on King's Landing rather than joining battle elsewhere. And it also makes Jaime more interesting. What if he was, next to being the Kingslayer, also the Kinslayer?

 

[Boaz]

Yeah, Jaime is both the kingslayer and the kinslayer... and Tyrion is neither. But really... there is still no solid proof for any of this. I'm just playing devil's advocate and being slightly silly... although, I'd love to be right on this!

 

[viZion]

Just wanted to throw in possible clue. Dany mentions in the book that she's never gotten sick. Viserys told her it's because she a Targaryen. Tyrion falls completely into the greyscale infected water and nothing happens to him. Jon Connigton reaches a hand in to save Tyrion and comes down with greyscale right away. So maybe that entire scene was thrown in as a hint that Tyrion is a Targ because he doesn't get sick.

 

[Ursa major]

We'll have to see how Cersei fares: she was was exposing cuts to the filth** of King's Landing on that walk from the great Sept of Baelor.









** - By which I mean the streets, not the population. Probably.

 

[Chella of Cheyk]

Targs are famous for inbreeding. Little people are often results to such. It might be a possibility; just saying. Though I'm not sure I'd cling to the idea fairly well. I like him as a Lannister, he should stay as such. I don't think there should be any closet Targs. Closet characters can be overplayed at times...

 

[The Imp]

Targs are famous for inbreeding. Little people are often results to such. It might be a possibility; just saying. Though I'm not sure I'd cling to the idea fairly well. I like him as a Lannister, he should stay as such. I don't think there should be any closet Targs. Closet characters can be overplayed at times...

Welcome to the forum Chella.

You're inventing that "fact" about dwarfism btw. Inbreeding would only hold true of the two partners who were inbreeding were dwarves themselves, or carried the gene for it. There is no evidence that i've ever seen that there has ever been a Targ that was a dwarf, so despite their history of inbreeding, their liklihood of producing a dwarf is probably quite small, as would be true for any families that inbreed. You can refer to this article for a bit more information-

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dwarfism/DS01012/DSECTION=causes

 

[Ursa major]

Yes, Welcome,Chella! .


There's also the inconvenient fact that Tyrion's mother was not a Targ, which would make it a rather odd form of inbreeding.

I know that this isn't what you meant, but it is relevant. When people worry about inbreeding, it usually concerns rare conditions that are recessive (i.e. the sufferer must have two copies of a mutated gene, one from each parent). Inbreeding increases the chance of getting both those mutated genes, because both parents are more likely to be descended from the single** source of the mutation higher up the family tree.



** - Very likely a single source, because the condition is very rare.

 

[Chella of Cheyk]

Welcome to the forum Chella.

You're inventing that "fact" about dwarfism btw. Inbreeding would only hold true of the two partners who were inbreeding were dwarves themselves, or carried the gene for it. There is no evidence that i've ever seen that there has ever been a Targ that was a dwarf, so despite their history of inbreeding, their liklihood of producing a dwarf is probably quite small, as would be true for any families that inbreed. You can refer to this article for a bit more information-

Thank you kindly for the welcome.
Ah. I was mislead then! I had a professer; some professor right? Mention this funny fact, and it seemed a bit odd. I never thought to question it. I'll take a look at that article, and maybe forward it this professor of mine.

 

[The Imp]

Thank you kindly for the welcome.
Ah. I was mislead then! I had a professer; some professor right? Mention this funny fact, and it seemed a bit odd. I never thought to question it. I'll take a look at that article, and maybe forward it this professor of mine.

Hopefully this wasn't a Biology professor