The Golden Compass Controversy

[Briareus Delta]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

This is interesting. Let me skate on thin ice here. How about Hitler's Mein Kampf? I'm not in favor of censoring, but I read parts of this horrible book and think it's for the good that it isn't just censored but even outlawed in many countries. What you're saying, though I admit a bit twisted, because we sensible people don't agree with Hitler's believes and think it's good it's outlawed, we're wrong?

I can't speak for Ian, but I've read the whole of Mein Kampf (there are always ways around a ban) and I certainly disagree with banning it. That's not because I agree with Hitlers beliefs - far from it, they are abhorrent - but because I think people should have the freedom to read it and make up their own minds. The book should have a 'health' warning, of course there are passages that are extremely offensive to Jews, but this is Hitler writing what he believed at the time - no more, no less. You can't catch bigotry or fascism by reading it. It has a fantastic educational value - as an illustration as to how patriotism and national pride can so easily turn to evil (and be hijacked for evil purpose) there simply is no better book.

I can't think of a single logical argument for it being banned.

 

[purple_kathryn]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I find it interesting that people find atheism so evil they believe anything that might promote should be banned.

Apparently I'm a bad person and I never realised it

 

[Wiglaf]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Did Pullman's statement that they shouldn't make nor should anyone want to view the Narnia series of movies censorship? A warning to fundamentalist Christians that they may not want to take their children to and pay for them to see a movie that they feel is adversarial to their beliefs is warranted. It does not affect your ability to see the movie.

Most of these people, I believe, are American. A country where religion does not have political power. A country where the Pledge of Allegiance and the money has come under attack for the mention of God, derrogitory statements about any religious faith except fundamentalist Christianity is condemned, and war memorials with giant crosses on hills as grave markers have been declared Unconstitutional; America seems, in their view, intent on discrediting their religion. In this light, it would be reasonable to expect them to be a wee sensitve. Especially when they are often portrayed by others as evil incarnate. As for separation of church and state, in their view atheism is a evagelizing religion, one intent on converting the world in the name of science and rationalism. Basically, in their view, atheists are acting just like medieval Christianity and Islam.

I have only read the first book, it seems to bring up the idea that if too much power is given to the leadership of organized religion, then corruption can occur. It is a standard argument against anyone gaining too much power. In the third book, do they go on to battle God?

Incidentally, I think some of Pullman's past comments and views have affected their thinking about the movie as much as its or the books' content.

 

[mosaix]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

As an atheist, and speaking for my people(!), I don't think there is a focus. Atheism is not about attacking other peoples beliefs. It's simply a belief system, every bit as much as Christianity or Islam. Believe what you want. Worship fairies if that's your thing. I choose not to believe in an afterlife - I don't expect to be attacked/criticised for it, just as I wouldn't attack anothers beliefs.

I'm not sure about atheism being a belief system. I prefer to think of it as a no-belief system.

I try, as far as I can and as far as my upbringing and indoctrination by the church will allow me, to 'believe' nothing, in the sense of the word that we are using it here.

I always try to think of myself as a born-again atheist. A new born believes nothing.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I'm not sure about atheism being a belief system. I prefer to think of it as a no-belief system.

I was trying to articulate the same earlier (and failed so I didn't post ) but I feel the same. As an atheist, for me it's not a case of not believing in god. Personally, I have no need for religion or a god so it's not that I don't believe, it's just something that doesn't feature in my life.

 

[Wiglaf]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Just a note, there are those that don't believe in God and a group that seems to be militantly against Christianity. Biareus Delta's statements might apply to the majority, but the ones that make all the noise are a different group. Think Christian vs. Fundamentalist Christian, Muslim vs. Fundamentalist Muslim, and Atheist vs. a new category of, for lack of a better term, Fundamentalist Atheist. One group of Atheists think that religious people are in err but that it is their business; the other group feels the need to convert all others or damn them to marginization as sub-human superstitious cretins.

From statements he has made, they put Pullman in the second group. Hence the urging other members of their group not to add to his income by seeing the movie.

 

[iansales]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I can't speak for Ian, but I've read the whole of Mein Kampf (there are always ways around a ban) and I certainly disagree with banning it.

I've never read Mein Kampf. Never really wanted to. But I agree that the book should not be banned. No book should be.

 

[mosaix]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Just a note, there are those that don't believe in God and a group that seems to be militantly against Christianity. Biareus Delta's statements might apply to the majority, but the ones that make all the noise are a different group. Think Christian vs. Fundamentalist Christian, Muslim vs. Fundamentalist Muslim, and Atheist vs. a new category of, for lack of a better term, Fundamentalist Atheist. One group of Atheists think that religious people are in err but that it is their business; the other group feels the need to convert all others or damn them to marginization as sub-human superstitious cretins.

From statements he has made, they put Pullman in the second group. Hence the urging other members of their group not to add to his income by seeing the movie.

Wiglaf, I am not 'against' religious people as such. In my view people are better off without religion so it's not surprising that I wouldn't want to bring my children up as believers.

However, and in the United States I know it is different, but here in the UK as I have said above, a 'daily act of worship' in schools is still the law. And also, as I've said above, Church Of England Bishops are, by right, part of the law making process.

Every single day the BBC broadcasts a program entitled 'Thought For The Day' and every single day it some kind of religious leader who gives us the benefits of his thoughts - like no-one else's count.

I make no apology therefore for being one of those atheists that 'makes a noise' and I will continue to do so until there's a level playing field.

 

[mosaix]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I've never read Mein Kampf. Never really wanted to. But I agree that the book should not be banned. No book should be.

Ian, I thought the same until I read American Psycho (there's a thread about this somewhere).

It's a thoroughly nasty book. It put thoughts into my head about 20 years ago that have never gone away, thoughts that I wish weren't there. Reading that book changed me, and not for the better.

 

[Wiglaf]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Hoopyfrood, would you be more of an Agnostic then?

Mosaix, I thought the House of Lords had about the same power as the Monarchy, none outside of public opinion. Am I wrong?
Here a daily act of worship in a public school would be illegal. The argument is more about crosses at old war memorials and changing the name of Christmas in the Park to whatever the current name is. Oh, and nativity scenes in front of churches.

 

[mosaix]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Mosaix, I thought the House of Lords had about the same power as the Monarchy, none outside of public opinion. Am I wrong?

Yep. All legislation that goes through Parliament also has to go through the second chamber - the House Of Lords.

Now they recognise that they are an endangered species and so are VERY careful about what they vote down. They wouldn't dare vote down a finance bill for instance. But if they really feel strongly about something - they vote it down.

And it's not just the Bishop's - not one single member of the House Of Lords is elected - bonkers or what?

 

[HoopyFrood]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I don't think so, Wiglaf -- agnostic is the idea of being unsure or doubtful about god, or can also mean that it's impossible to know whether god exists or not. That's not even an issue for me; what I'm trying to say is that knowing that there is or isn't a god is not something that concerns me. It's hard to define what I mean. It's not that I don't believe in god or religion or am doubtful about it -- it's just something that doesn't play a part in my life at all. It's like...like customs in other cultures -- you know about them and you know there are people that follow them, but have no effect on you; you have no reason to personally believe or disbelieve in them because they play no part in your own life. So for want of a word, atheist suits because I'm very sure that a god(s) does not have a place in my personal life.

See, now you know why I was having difficulty posting earlier...

Anyway, it seems we've deviated from the main feature...so...Golden Compass, yes?

 

[iansales]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Ian, I thought the same until I read American Psycho (there's a thread about this somewhere).

I've read that. And seen the film. In fact, I like Bret Easton Ellis' novels.

 

[iansales]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Yep. All legislation that goes through Parliament also has to go through the second chamber - the House Of Lords.

Now they recognise that they are an endangered species and so are VERY careful about what they vote down. They wouldn't dare vote down a finance bill for instance. But if they really feel strongly about something - they vote it down.

And it's not just the Bishop's - not one single member of the House Of Lords is elected - bonkers or what?

The House of Lords has very little power. They can't veto a bill, they can only send it back to the House of Commons. Not that it happens very often - the governments of the day like to stack the odds in their favour with life peerages handed out for services rendered...

 

[mosaix]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

They can't veto a bill, they can only send it back to the House of Commons...

...for amendment.

So the elected government of the day put through legislation in the Commons, it is debated by them and the opposition and voted on by all the elected MPs and passed.

Then it goes to the House of Lords where an unelected bunch of people have the power to say 'No we don't like that - think again'.

And it isn't stacked, when a Government comes to power the House of Lords is filled with all the cronies from all the administrations from the last 50 years. In fact the more I describe this the more I realise how stupid it all is.

But to get back to the original point, the Bishops are there by right - nothing to do with any Government, in fact nothing to do with anyone - certainly not the electorate.

 

[Brigitte]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Therefore, without yet seeing the film, at least one pro-family group -- the American Family Association -- is alerting Christians to the potential dangers of The Golden Compass

Alerting Christians? I'm sorry, but when I read that, I crack up. It reminds me of the Homeland Security color-coded alert system. Terror alert Orange! Oh, boy. Would this be a Christian alert orange? Or maybe red? Oh no!

By the way, I am a Christian for the most part. I agree with a post made way back about how some Christians are not offended my these movies. I'm certainly not. I think that, while they don't agree with my beliefs, they serve as a good ground for discussion and open opinions. And, they strengthen your faith if you can still find what you believe in (but that's as theological as I'm going to get)

In a way, for Simpsons fans out there, this "alert" reminds me of Flanders's church, with the "Rapture Alert: Yellow" sign out front.

 

[iansales]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

I still think your attributing more power to the House of Lords than it has.

And this thread seems to have covered almost everything now - we've done religion, and now politics... what's left? quantum mechanics?

 

[Dave]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

And this thread seems to have covered almost everything now - we've done religion, and now politics... what's left? quantum mechanics?

Actually, I don't think the books properly explained the portals between the worlds.

 

[Majimaune]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Actually, I don't think the books properly explained the portals between the worlds.

Well as far as I understood it, you could create a rip in the fabric of the universe if you had the right instrument, the knife. I have no idea how the knife did it though.

 

[iansales]

Re: Golden Compass Backlash...

Yes, but was the cat alive or dead?