Jaime

[Brian G Turner]

Maybe it's a cliche, but when faced with characters with very serious moral lapses, who then make penitance, isn't it a common plot device that they sacrifice themselves heroically?

Do you think that might apply to Jaime Lannister?

 

[Lacedaemonian]

I agree with you to an extent Brian. However, I think he is more likely to make personal sacrifices. This could be in the form of turning his back on the family. People who seek penitance also look for penitance in the church. I think that he will simply immerse himself into his role within the kingsguard.

 

[red_temple]

My gut feeling tells me that Jaime will make good and become very much the hero that we all want him to be. But, just when we think he's safe, GRRM will rip our hearts out and have Arya the assassin take him out (not realizing that he has repented).

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I guess that's one more reason why things are going to be so interesting in the next book! I mean, at first I just speculated on the obvious stuff after finishing ASoS the first time, like Jon's parentage, what will happen with Arya and Sansa, and things like that. But this forum has definitely brought different issues to light for me.

I have mentioned before that I am currently re-reading ASoS. As I read yesterday, the complete devastation finally hit me. I didn't really stop to think how the war and the more devious acts of the characters in the book affected everything, but a closer look has brought some questions to my mind. I mean, it seems that nearly all of the major houses are almost destroyed!

(SPOILER coming up!)



We all know very well what happened to the Starks, but what about House Tully? And the Lannisters, well... Cersei will finally have all the control she's lusted after for so long, but knowing her, she can't hold it well. Will Ser Kevan Lannister be taking over? It seems rather likely. Tyrion is probably the only one who would have been mentally equipped enough to keep the Lannisters, not to mention the realm, afloat.

As for Jaime, I read a bit of a spoiler on him somewhere, and it seems that he's truly gone the soul-searching route. It almost seems that he starts to regret his kingslaying actions. I'm guessing he may just end up welcoming Daenerys with open arms.

 

[hodor]

Perhaps Arya. However, it is hard to tell how Jaime will act when confronted with dishonoring himself again in the kingsguard. In order to welcome Daenerys he would be confronted with just such a situation. It will be very very interesting to see what he does in the future.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think, in this case, welcoming Daenerys would do more to repair his honor than anything else would.

Do you think she'll have him killed, if he's still alive when she returns?

 

[hodor]

I think, in this case, welcoming Daenerys would do more to repair his honor than anything else would.

Do you think she'll have him killed, if he's still alive when she returns?

It is so hard to predict Dany. I don't think she will have him killed though. I can imagine many who she will have killed but I feel that if this situation occurs she will choose to wait him out.

 

[LadyFel]

SPOILERS POSSIBLE




I think that by the time Dany comes to King's Landing she will have been told a lot more of the TRUTH about members of her family, especially some of the old king's deeds, that she will be well aware that SOMEONE had to put an end to her father...

Although, if Tyrion joins up with her as I'm kind of expecting, there's also the question of how he will present Jaime to her before she meets him, considering their last little chat...

As for Jaime himself, I don't think he's repenting in the real sense of remorse over some of his actions - he still feels he was right in killing Aerys, and he knows there is no way he can give Bran his legs back, or restore Ned to his family...but I think he sees that his actions, or at least some of them, came for the wrong reasons...I get the feeling that he's more disgusted with himself for his motives than for his actions...And I think he's already started to deliberately distance himself and follow his mind and what he feels in his heart and gut is right rather than following blind 'love'...

Cliched as the whole idea of the bad guy making good, I look forward to seeing how he develops, as well as Sandor Clegane...Right now they have my grudging respect, I hated Martin for that, but the more I think about it the more I feel that they will end up as two of the most honourable and likeable characters - while still keeping the hard personalities they started out with...

 

[erickad71]

I agree with Lacey...I think Jaime will fully embrace his new role in the kingsguard. He's finally seeing what Cersei's true personality is like. Also, Brienne and losing his hand have helped him see himself in a new light.

I do find it interesting that the commander of the Kingsguard gets to write his own personal history/profile...makes you wonder how Jaime will write his own.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Perhaps Arya. However, it is hard to tell how Jaime will act when confronted with dishonoring himself again in the kingsguard. In order to welcome Daenerys he would be confronted with just such a situation. It will be very very interesting to see what he does in the future.

Interesting point!
What will Jaime do? Fulfill his oath as Kingsguard and Protect (literally) his own flesh and blood, or sensing a chance to redeem his past actions, side with Dany?

More to the point, will Dany be ruthless enough to oust (i.e. kill) a 13yr old boy from "her throne" (assuming the 5+ year gap GRRM originally envisaged comes to pass), not to mention a 15yr old sister held by Dorne - or will they be disposed of by others like Rhaegar's children?

The more I ponder this, the more I come to think this series will not have the traditional happy ending!

 

[erickad71]

Oh, I think Dany will oust them. Not kill them though, I don't think she could kill children. I'm not sure what she could/would do with them...what do you think she would do or will do once she gets to Westeros?

 

[Lacedaemonian]

My heart tells me that she will somehow side with what is left of the north. Please, please, please let her be the saviour of the Starks. I still miss Ned.

 

[LadyFel]

I do find it interesting that the commander of the Kingsguard gets to write his own personal history/profile...makes you wonder how Jaime will write his own.

Well...what he's written so far shows that he's capable of being brutally honest about himself...OK, he didn't mention the incident with Bran, but the White Book is meant to deal with the official part of his life, and that he's written honestly enough...

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

SPOILERS POSSIBLE




I think that by the time Dany comes to King's Landing she will have been told a lot more of the TRUTH about members of her family, especially some of the old king's deeds, that she will be well aware that SOMEONE had to put an end to her father...

As for Jaime himself, I don't think he's repenting in the real sense of remorse over some of his actions - he still feels he was right in killing Aerys, and he knows there is no way he can give Bran his legs back, or restore Ned to his family...but I think he sees that his actions, or at least some of them, came for the wrong reasons...

You have some good points there, LadyFel. I do think that Daenerys will have to eventually face the facts about her family, and it will be especially hard on her. However, she's having some schooling on how to deal with the tougher issues in her life, so I think she'll bounce back.

In regards to Jaime, I agree that he seems to still believe he was right in killing Aerys. In fact, there is one particular spot in ASoS, in which he is trying to convince Brienne to allow Vargo Hoat's men to rape her, and to just "go away inside." "That was what he'd done, when the Starks had died before him, Lord Rickard cooking in his armor while his son Brandon strangled himself trying to save him." I think that seeing Aerys do wrong in all those ways made him all the more eager to be rid of the rule of a man like that. Who knows? Perhaps it was his subconscious way of trying to be a "true knight," in a twisted way.

Oh, I think Dany will oust them. Not kill them though, I don't think she could kill children. I'm not sure what she could/would do with them...what do you think she would do or will do once she gets to Westeros?

I agree with Ericka that it is unlikely that Dany will have the Usurper's children killed. She may learn that they are a product of incest, anyway. But even if she still believes them to be the children of her enemies, she is a kinder person than that. She freed the Astapori slaves, didn't she? However, I think that if she does not kill them, she will keep them close. She is well aware of what possibilities exiles can offer, after all.

 

[erickad71]

However, I think that if she does not kill them, she will keep them close. She is well aware of what possibilities exiles can offer, after all.

See, that's what I was thinking...but what kind of position would they hold? Would they be like Theon was with the Starks? A hostage to their families good behavior? That would make the most sense to me.

 

[LadyFel]

Or she may go a different tack and try being kind to them once she realises they're pretty good kids on the whole (provided they STAY good kids)...I think Dany, if she can get past the facts about her family and the circumstances which led Robert to his rebellion and the throne, has a lot to learn from some of HIS tactics as well...

YES, you're the rightful queen, YES, you need to do justice, but don't kill off people just for donig what they believed to be right...Forgive those who deserve to be forgiven, etc...

Ser Barristan will be a good teacher of that for her - he fought for her brother, Robert forgave him, and she's already forgiven him for not joining her and Viserys straight away as well as for his earlier change of allegiance...

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

LadyFel, I like your style. I hadn't considered Ser Barristan from that angle before. Hmmmmmmmmmm.....

 

[hodor]

I have been pondering perhaps the notion of Dany making a few people take the black.

 

[Culhwch]

My heart tells me that she will somehow side with what is left of the north. Please, please, please let her be the saviour of the Starks. I still miss Ned.

But doesn't she hold the Starks in as much contempt as the Baratheons and the Lannisters? It was after all Robert AND Ned (and Jon Arryn) who led the rebellion - and Ned who took King's Landing first (after the Lannister's did their baby-killing routine, of course). Not to mention Lyanna's role in the whole thing, which is still a bit mysterious. With the present scant information she has, I think she just about hates them all with equal fervour - of course Selmy could broaden her knowledge of events. I think Martin wants us to think the two will come together - there are a lot of theories I've seen saying Jon and Dany will hook up, but I doubt that very much - but I think in the end he'll stun us again.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

But doesn't she hold the Starks in as much contempt as the Baratheons and the Lannisters? It was after all Robert AND Ned (and Jon Arryn) who led the rebellion - and Ned who took King's Landing first (after the Lannister's did their baby-killing routine, of course). Not to mention Lyanna's role in the whole thing, which is still a bit mysterious. With the present scant information she has, I think she just about hates them all with equal fervour - of course Selmy could broaden her knowledge of events. I think Martin wants us to think the two will come together - there are a lot of theories I've seen saying Jon and Dany will hook up, but I doubt that very much - but I think in the end he'll stun us again.

There is also Ser Jorah to consider. He has little liking for the Starks, especially Ned, and he's been telling Dany his side of things for a long time. However, the fact remains that Dany really can't afford to off or ostracize all of the more powerful houses in Westeros; she needs to make amends with at least some of them, or she will lose the favor from the rest of the realm.


I, too, believe that Jon and Dany will not end up together. She needs an heir, though.