Jaime

[hodor]

Oh man, I am trying to picture you in it... oh what a fantasy. LOL... have a great day Arya. It has been good blabbing about the books with ya. I must admit though, I think you are more currently read than me which make me more inclined to do another re read real soon. Good night (at least here in France it is night).

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Good night Hodor, stay warm in France. Hee hee you're one "Zonie" who hasn't come to San Diego! Nice talking to you, have fun now.

 

[jnr_turtle]

Hmmm, just read that cave bit again, and I don't recall Ygritte saying anything about a fake horn.

As I recall, she doesn't actually say that the horn's a fake (since she didn't even seem to know that Mance had it) but rather they were looking for Joramun's horn and still hadn't found it.

 

[Boaz]

I have a comment or two to make regarding my favorite character. Since I don't like to start new threads when an older one works perfectly fine... here goes.

Maybe it's a cliche, but when faced with characters with very serious moral lapses, who then make penitance, isn't it a common plot device that they sacrifice themselves heroically?

Do you think that might apply to Jaime Lannister?

Certainly this is a theme used in storytelling in film... Mendoza (Robert DeNiro) in The Mission. Jack (Leonardo DiCaprio) in Titanic. Luke (Paul Newman) in Cool Hand Luke. Poncelet (Sean Penn) in Dead Man Walking. Brooks (James Whitmore) in The Shawshank Redemption. And literature... Valjean, Eponine, and Gavroche (and Fantine in the musical version) of Les Miserables. Achilles of The Illiad. St. Paul of the New Testament. Boromir and Theoden of The Lord of the Rings.

I think the plot device applies especially to sidekicks, love interests, and other characters surrounding the protagonist.

It's not just getting their "just desserts." I do believe that there is judgement, i.e. punishment, for sins... and Jaime will definitely suffer for what he did to Bran and Robert. He's been maimed, disowned, and made an enemy of his uncle.

But, I feel it deals more with the difficulty of living in society after doing a moral "about face." To live according to his conscience, Jaime has turned his back on his father, his sister/lover, and sent Brienne to assist his hereditary enemies. And yet, none of the morally upright people (except for Brienne) can yet see Jaime as possessing a change of heart... this means the entire world, except for Brienne, is against him. That is a tough way to live.

On a side note, I was wondering today about how Tywin had planned on getting Jaime out of the Kingsguard and back to being the next Lord of Casterly Rock... Now, please remember Tywin tells Tyrion something to the effect that Joffrey is leaping from one debacle to the next and needs to be taken in hand. (No pun intended.) This was after Cersei dismissed Barristan Selmy from the Kingsguard. Mayhaps Tywin helped plan this... I say this because Cersei offered Barristan lands and a castle. Did she have any of her own to give? As Queen and Regent, yes. But mayhaps her father was offering the lands so that he'd get Barristan's help in the civil war. Mayhaps, and I think this is the key, Tywin wanted a precedent to allow Jaime to also slip away from the Kingsguard. Jaime had too many notorious firsts already... it'd be better for Jaime to be second this time.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Actually, Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption didn't kill himself to make amends. He killed himself because he could not hack it in the changed outside world. He was institutionalized.

Back on topic: Jaime was a kid when he killed Aertys and not yet done growing. Despite all his shortcomings, I believe that he might be good on the inside. Perhaps he is the reverse of Cat?
He has seen the worst of the world and wants to make it better, as opposed to having seen the best of the world and wanting to make others suffer.

 

[Bayou Boy]

But, I feel it deals more with the difficulty of living in society after doing a moral "about face." To live according to his conscience, Jaime has turned his back on his father, his sister/lover, and sent Brienne to assist his hereditary enemies. And yet, none of the morally upright people (except for Brienne) can yet see Jaime as possessing a change of heart... this means the entire world, except for Brienne, is against him. That is a tough way to live.

Looking at it from the perspective of the other characters (who aren't privy to Jaime's innermost thoughts), it's tough for anyone on the outside looking in to observe that Jaime has had a change of heart.

He's the Lord Commander of Tommen's Kingsguard. He leads royalist forces against Riverrun.

Mayhaps Tywin helped plan this... I say this because Cersei offered Barristan lands and a castle. Did she have any of her own to give? As Queen and Regent, yes. But mayhaps her father was offering the lands so that he'd get Barristan's help in the civil war. Mayhaps, and I think this is the key, Tywin wanted a precedent to allow Jaime to also slip away from the Kingsguard. Jaime had too many notorious firsts already... it'd be better for Jaime to be second this time.

I think Tywin was certainly eager to take advantage of the precedent Cersei set by dismissing Barristan (in terms of using it as a way to get Jaime out of the KG), but from his conversation with Tyrion in Book 1, it doesn't seem likely that Tywin was behind it. (He specifically cites the dismissal of Barristan as one of Joffrey's "follies").

Barristan's dismissal also happened very quickly in the aftermath of Robert's death. I think it would have been pretty tough for Tywin to have that specific set of circumstances (Robert gets mauled by a boar with Barristan ordered to stand down) mapped out in advance.

 

[Boaz]

Syphon, I see Brooks as having been remorseful of his crime. Yes, he was "institutionalized" and yet he also could not handle living and working with people who did not accept his change of heart. Through Red's eyes, we see how difficult this was on Brooks. You are correct, Brooks was not a sacrifice. But he did suffer for his awakening of conscience... if he'd stayed a bad guy, then he'd never have been paroled.

Also, I'm trying to avoid waxing too theological on the theme of sacrifice.

BB, the argument on timing is strong. It's much more valid than Tywin's remarks to Tyrion. I can think of numerous situations where Tywin hid his plans from Tyrion despite the fact that knowledge of the plans would have helped Tyrion... eg. Tyrion's part in the battle against Roose Bolton, Tywin's joining forces with Mace and their imminent approach to KL, Tyrion's appointment as Master of Coin, and Twyin's offer for Tyrion to join the Night's Watch... also, Tywin was sleeping with Shae... (personally, I think this began before Tyrion returned from the Eyrie.)

 

[Bayou Boy]

BB, the argument on timing is strong. It's much more valid than Tywin's remarks to Tyrion. I can think of numerous situations where Tywin hid his plans from Tyrion despite the fact that knowledge of the plans would have helped Tyrion... eg. Tyrion's part in the battle against Roose Bolton, Tywin's joining forces with Mace and their imminent approach to KL, Tyrion's appointment as Master of Coin, and Twyin's offer for Tyrion to join the Night's Watch... also, Tywin was sleeping with Shae... (personally, I think this began before Tyrion returned from the Eyrie.)

I can't agree strongly enough that Tywin didn't always make a great effort to either be honest with Tyrion or to keep him in the know.

That being said, I don't see where Tywin would have any incentive to dissemble about Barristan.

In that conversation in Book 1, Tywin has just railed against every other decision that had been made in King's Landing, from killing Eddard Stark to giving Harrenhal to Janos Slynt. He then labels the decision to dump Selmy from the Kingsguard as a similar screwup on the part of Joffrey and/or Cersei.

"And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false . . ."

Tyrion knew. "Spikes," he sighed. "Heads. Walls."

"I see you have taken a few lessons from me."

Even without taking timing into account, I don't see where there's any evidence that this decision was one with which Tywin not only agreed but one that he actually instigated.

 

[Boaz]

Okay, this is fairly weak... but mayhaps Tywin envisioned Barristan becoming a western lord and serving personally under his command.

On the surface it'd make more sense to dismiss Boros Blount. But in doing that Tywin would've set the precedent of dismissing KG's for incompetence... thus Jaime's leaving the KG could be construed along the same lines. At least on the surface, Cersei tried to make Barristan leaving the KG as more of an honorable retirement... until Joffrey opened his mouth.

You're probably right... the whole thing backfired. Barristan's sacking, subsequent botched arrest, and his joining Dany has all the hallmarks of a Cersei plot... a complete debacle.