SPOILERS: A New Theory on Jon

[hodor]

The prime example would be Catelyn - Edmure is younger but still inherited Riverrun, not Cat. The Seven Kingdoms are patriarchal, except for the Mormonts - which was demanded by circumstances - and in Dorne, where it's eldest born, not eldest born son, hence Doran's daughter Arianne is heir to Sunspear. But Martin has said Dorne is more or less matriarchal since Nymeria invaded - see the little bit before the family tree in AGoT.

And I really liked Dacey too. Damn Freys. I hope Dany and her dragons cook Walder and his brats in their castle.

Cat didn't inherit Riverrun... she was no longer a Tully.

 

[erickad71]

And I really liked Dacey too. Damn Freys. I hope Dany and her dragons cook Walder and his brats in their castle.

I really liked her too! I was so upset by that scene...I had to read it twice to make sure of what I was reading. The first time with my jaw in my lap, and then after I put it back in place...that was probably one of the most amazing scenes I have ever read.

 

[Culhwch]

Cat didn't inherit Riverrun... she was no longer a Tully.

Good point. But were she an unmarried spinster, Edmure would still have inherited before her. I'll go for another example that I just read, then - when Sam takes the black, his brother - who is younger than his sisters - becomes heir to Horn Hill.

 

[Culhwch]

I really liked her too! I was so upset by that scene...I had to read it twice to make sure of what I was reading. The first time with my jaw in my lap, and then after I put it back in place...that was probably one of the most amazing scenes I have ever read.

Yeah, that chapter was a killer. I had to have a long break after that before I could go on. It's amazing how attached you get to these periphery characters who only show up now and then and often only have a dozen or so lines. Dacey Mormont, Smalljon Umber, Cley Cerwyn, Benfred Tallheart, Salladhor Saan...

 

[shaggydog]

Yeah it was hard to continue after the red wedding... after Arya's chapter I had a big discussion in my mind deciding if i should go on or not... my eyes kept going back to reread, i couldnt believe it... the same in a GoT with ned... oh god it was hard to keep going...
GRRM makes his books an eternal agony.... and i love him for it, or i hate him... never know for sure...

 

[hodor]

Good point. But were she an unmarried spinster, Edmure would still have inherited before her. I'll go for another example that I just read, then - when Sam takes the black, his brother - who is younger than his sisters - becomes heir to Horn Hill.

Exactly mate! Sam took the black... he can't inherit. Who is to say Catelyn wouldn't have taken Riverrun given she wasn't married. She seems capable enough to boss her younger brother. Don't play along with this theory that Westeros gives everything to males now. It is no longer the case. Maege and Asha have proven this to be otherwise. The fact that marriage into another family with another name may inhibit a woman from turning a Riverrun land into a Stark land can not be a case of argument.

 

[Culhwch]

I wasn't saying that it happens in all cases, just that the general rule is eldest born male inherits, not eldest born. Cases like Maege Mormont's and Lady Hornwood's arose from there being no suitable male heir - Jorah Mormont was Lord of Bear Island until he fled in shame, Jeor was on the Wall, so Maege took over. She didn't say, 'Right, that's enough of this patriarchal bull****, I'm in charge! Girl power!' Not that there would be anything wrong with that if she did. More power to her. But it ain't the accepted practice. Which may be changing, or may not...

Don't forget Asha hasn't quite inherited just yet. There's a storm abrewing in the Iron Islands. And Cersei as well, despite being Tywin's only child who isn't a sworn brother or fugitive from the law, doesn't look like getting the Rock.

 

[hodor]

Actually I still can't buy into your reasoning. The primary reason most women haven't taken over the house is because they are married into another house. It would not be to a house's interest to have Stark head of the Tully house... in the case of Catelyn.

 

[Culhwch]

But if it was this burgeoning matriarchal society you are trying to sell - why would the woman join their husband's house, and the husbands not join the wife's house? The women don't have a choice in the matter! Catelyn had to marry Brandon, and then Eddard! Lysa had to marry Jon Arryn! Cersei had to marry Robert! Sansa had to marry Joffrey! They do what they are told to do!

You are frustrating me beyond words, Hodor... But in a good way. Simpleminded stable boy, my eye!

 

[hodor]

I agree that this is usually the case with a few exceptions. However, do we consider life to be matriarcal given that typically the woman takes on the mans last name and not the other way around.

 

[Culhwch]

Do you mean as in the real world? And do you mean patriarchal as the wife takes on the man's last name? If so, I'd have to say yes and no. Not as patriarchal as it once was, but still leaning that way. Women don't always take the man's name, and are very much on an equal footing with men in society now, which is how it should be. But Bush is still the US president, Howard runs my little country (against my express wishes, but who listens to me?), Blair lords it in Britain, and most other world leaders are men. The Pope's still a bloke, as are the heads of most major religions, I believe. So, as a society, our power holders are men.

But Westeros doesn't equate to modern day, rather medieval times, when women were just bought and sold and told what to do. Useful in shoring up alliances, or doing needlework, but otherwise? Which is why it's so great that Martin is portraying smart, strong, ambitious, resourceful women.

 

[hodor]

Oh, but the men of the houses must marry as well and, more often than not, a person not of their direct choosing. Ned for example. I equate it down to just merely keeping Winterfell as a Stark house or Riverrun a Tully house. There are many countries today with women leaders and Thatcher was a prime minister in the UK before Blair was. In the USA a woman is in one of the top three most powerful positions (Rice). Tis just a matter of perspective. In some cases in Westeros the women are more capable of running the house they are in but rarely rise to the position due to the marriage factor. Cersei pretty much ran all the Lannister interests at court in open conflict with her male counterparts. However, how can she rise to head the Lannister house if she marries and takes on a different name.... then it will no longer be House Lannister. However, it is true that the women are pushed into marriage based on wealth, lands, bannermen and what not; however, the men are as well, and just as much so.

 

[LadyFel]

Which is why Cersei never wanted to get married in the first place...

Spoiler:



Anyway - an example of the patriarchal setup more obvious that I don't think anyone has mentioned so far - Tommen has inherited Joffrey's throne although he is younger than Myrcella...

 

[hodor]

Which is why Cersei never wanted to get married in the first place...

Spoiler:



Anyway - an example of the patriarchal setup more obvious that I don't think anyone has mentioned so far - Tommen has inherited Joffrey's throne although he is younger than Myrcella...

AYE.... but BACK to my point.... where IS Mycella and don't you think she will be marrying into Dorne?

However, to argue against myself the very BEST example of patriarchal society is how Joffrey inherited the throne and not Cersei.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Silly Hodor, that's because Cersei wasn't a Baratheon. It all comes down to blood.

 

[hodor]

Actually she married and became a Baratheon... however, I forget if they ever consumated it LOL.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

No they didn't. She had a few tricks up her sleeve.

 

[hodor]

Yeah I read about that... lol. So according to Westoros law she is not and never was married to a Baratheon.

 

[Boaz]

Cersei was most definitely married to Robert. She confesses to Ned, that on their wedding night Robert called her Lyanna, while he was in her.

BTW, I think that Gendry (Robert's *******) will end up smithing or perhaps becoming a captain for Edric "Ned" Dayne. Both of them have connections to Arya...

Has there been a theory of Aerys+Lyanna=Jon? What if Aerys (not Rhaegar) raped Lyanna? What if Rhaegar (who was attracted to Lyanna) spirited her away from his father's reach? Everyone would have thought that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, but he was protecting her. Rhaegar's chivalry and Lyanna's vulnerability may have drawn these two together in a platonic love. They wanted to be together, but Lyanna's pregnancy prevented this. Jon is her son by Aerys. She told Ned the child was Rhaegar's.

 

[Th1stle]

Westeros definitely has patriarchal leanings, as a loose parallel to English history. The oldest male of a family has the tradition of inheriting.

Nevertheless, haven't you noticed the trend? The sword decides all, in every case, whether man or woman, which is why Tyrion does his utmost to rob Cersei of her guard and connive behind her back. Women are every bit as dangerous and powerful as men in this world as long as they cling to some semblance of patriarchal power. Witness: the Red Lady behind Stannis, Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion, Cersei's semi-cunning scheming. That's why the riddle of Varys comes into play, why the free folk could prove to be a threat in the north. Asha has the better cards for taking over the Greyjoy clan. Renly attracts more troops than Stannis, though he's younger. Patriarchal traditions of inheritance are respected mainly in the Seven Kingdoms because to do otherwise would destabilize the region even more.