spoiler:knight of the laughingtree=jon

[Raven]

Culhwch: well, there's two ways to approach the Tyrion question. One is to point out that Dorne would be required to hand Tyrion over if he went there: it isn't a safe refuge. Also, Varys organised his escape, and Varys has contacts in the Free Cities but none that we know of in Dorne. So it's a reasonable conclusion.

The other is simply to point out that spoiler chapters definitely confirm that Tyrion has gone to the Free Cities.

Some speculate that this suits Varys and Illyrio's planning. They now have the rightful heir to Casterly Rock on their side and in their debt, a powerful ally for Dany. And more than that, Tyrion has certain knowledge that Dany might find useful. He knows a lot about dragons and warfare (we see him reading books on these subjects), and remember that saddle he designed for himself and Bran? Think it might be useful for riding a creature too big for stirrups?

Hodor: I'm still going with Lyanna as the mystery knight. I've been a longstanding fan of this idea. It simply makes more sense, story-wise.

My belief is that Rhaegar initially crowns Lyanna because he knows she is the KotLT. He is acknowledging her as the rightful winner of the tourney, in the only way he can.

It is after this, I believe, that the two fall in love.

 

[hodor]

Hodor: I'm still going with Lyanna as the mystery knight. I've been a longstanding fan of this idea. It simply makes more sense, story-wise.

My belief is that Rhaegar initially crowns Lyanna because he knows she is the KotLT. He is acknowledging her as the rightful winner of the tourney, in the only way he can.

It is after this, I believe, that the two fall in love.

I can actually see it go both ways Raven. Personally I find that I like the idea of Howland being the knight more so than Lyanna. However, I have heard arguments to them both and they are both rather credible. To this end I find all this gives Rhaegar a whole heck of a lot of credit....

 

[shaggydog]

I agree with hodor in that, I like it being Howland more than Lyanna, but you never know. Howland Reed will have the answers and some other forces too... as for the Dornish... it will be interesting to see in which way thay come into the central action... I think it is now their turn to hold Kings Landing -(No Baratheons, Lannisters cersei and kevan will kick each other ass)- lots of roses in KL, the sun will come. Maybe some mistery POV in that way?
Oh I cant wait for aFFC...

by the way, Midnight, nice post!

 

[hodor]

Aye, Howland has something more to do with all this than we actually see... what is it? GRRM has this great way of making even the most intelligent person resort to theorizing about things... praises to this author.

 

[MIDNIGHT]

Thanks for the defense Raven about Lyanna being the mystery knight.Here is a simple point to those who still think the mystery knight was the crannogman.The crannogman states to the 2 stark brothers that he was to small and had no skill to defend himself, how can this crannogman be Howland reed who in such a short time becomes a warrior/defender friend of Ned stark during the war.I would think that it would take more than a year to train in the arts of warfare.Not to mention that if the crannogman was really Howland Reed why didn't Lyanna or any of the Starks recognize him as one of their bannormen(the Reeds are sworn to the north)Lyanna only recognized him as a crannogman.I'm not buying the theory that he is Howland Reed sorry.Anybody want to take some bets?

 

[hodor]

Thanks for the defense Raven about Lyanna being the mystery knight.Here is a simple point to those who still think the mystery knight was the crannogman.The crannogman states to the 2 stark brothers that he was to small and had no skill to defend himself, how can this crannogman be Howland reed who in such a short time becomes a warrior/defender friend of Ned stark during the war.I would think that it would take more than a year to train in the arts of warfare.Not to mention that if the crannogman was really Howland Reed why didn't Lyanna or any of the Starks recognize him as one of their bannormen(the Reeds are sworn to the north)Lyanna only recognized him as a crannogman.I'm not buying the theory that he is Howland Reed sorry.Anybody want to take some bets?

I wasn't in the notion that THAT crannogman was the mystery knight. I am just in the belief that it was Howland... I never actually thought this defenseless man was the knight.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I agree with Hodor. Wouldn't someone notice if Lyanna conveniently disappeared while the fighting was going on, then reappeared afterwards? Not that I'm saying it's not a possibility, but I think Howland Reed is a good candidate for the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The symbol of the Laughing Tree ties in well with the theory that the crannogmen are involved/descendants of the Children.

 

[hodor]

Aye... I have always believed the crannogmen had something to do with the Children; plus no one directly inferred that the crannog insulted was actually the crannog mystery knight. I am in the belief that it was a crannog who fought that day.

 

[Jeroam]

Midnight said:
Not to mention that if the crannogman was really Howland Reed why didn't Lyanna or any of the Starks recognize him as one of their bannormen(the Reeds are sworn to the north)Lyanna only recognized him as a crannogman.

Very simple explanation: Lyanna's not telling this story. Meera tells this story to Bran, while Jojen asks, "Didn't your dad ever tell you this?"

You see, most of this story, as Meera tells it, isn't meant to enlighten the reader, so much as Meera and Jojen are testing Bran. She tells the story in this fairy tale manner, because Bran is a 9 year old boy. Bran may, or may not, be old enough to handle all of the truth. And so Jojen and Meera are parcelling it out, teaching him bits and pieces as he grows and develops his powers. You have to remember Bran is not a good student. He is not accomplishing simple tasks while controlling Summer and Jojen might be wondering if he'll be ready in time. It's amazing that Meera tells this story at all with as much detail as they think Bran can handle. I think they're trying to push Bran to take his power more seriously while trying to figure out just how much of the puzzle Bran already knows.

Who does know the whole puzzle? Howland Reed was the only one who came back alive from the tower with Ned. Ser Barristan was the last Kingsguard who would have known why those three were at the tower and not with Rhaegar. Jojen and Meera might know, having been told by their father, but either way they're not going to tell a 9 year old boy such a secret like that and expect him to keep it to himself.

 

[hodor]

Aye mate... you have definitely hit the key here! The Reeds are the key and time will definitely tell. I am fairly certain Lyanna was not the mystery knight and it is, as you said, a crannog tale.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Interesting points made there, Jeroam. I think that Jojen was asking if Bran had heard the story before because there is obviously a very important bit of information contained within the story.

As for Bran being unable to follow simple commands, I think that with a good teacher he'll have a better chance. He's learning everything on his own. In addition, he really is a good student, to some degree. That's why he is so proud when he remembers all the history lessons he's been taught.

I can’t wait until Howland Reed comes into the story. He’s bound to be one of my favorite characters, I just know it.

 

[hodor]

Howland Reed a future PoV?... what do you thing?

 

[Jeroam]

A small observation on physical characteristics.
It seems to me that 4 of the 5 active threads on this message board are pretty much the same discussion. Who are Jon's parents? There is a lot of who has the Targ's violet eyes/silver hair and who looks more like a Stark. After posting on this thread, and giving some thought to the Reed's I'd like to point out something that may have gone unnoticed.

Jojen and his sister are described as having a lot of 'Children of the Forest' characteristics. Jojen has the green sight, and striking green eyes "the color of moss." The Lannister's also have green eyes. Jaimie "with those flashing green eyes," Cersei also, and Tyrion's being mismatched green and black. Could there be a connection there? Perhaps a Children of the Forest and Lann the Clever from the Age of Heroes interaction that will be revealed later on. Is anybody else itching for a complete Age of Heroes novel?

 

[Jeroam]

Hodor said:
Howland Reed a future PoV?... what do you think?

Woah, dude, man, heavy, you're blowing my mind.

 

[erickad71]

Personally, I'm hoping Howland is the new mystery POV.

 

[hodor]

A small observation on physical characteristics.
It seems to me that 4 of the 5 active threads on this message board are pretty much the same discussion. Who are Jon's parents? There is a lot of who has the Targ's violet eyes/silver hair and who looks more like a Stark. After posting on this thread, and giving some thought to the Reed's I'd like to point out something that may have gone unnoticed.

Jojen and his sister are described as having a lot of 'Children of the Forest' characteristics. Jojen has the green sight, and striking green eyes "the color of moss." The Lannister's also have green eyes. Jaimie "with those flashing green eyes," Cersei also, and Tyrion's being mismatched green and black. Could there be a connection there? Perhaps a Children of the Forest and Lann the Clever from the Age of Heroes interaction that will be revealed later on. Is anybody else itching for a complete Age of Heroes novel?

I believe I already brought up the Children in relation to the crannogs in another post... I am just not sure which one.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I"m digging Howland as a future PoV.

 

[Culhwch]

Thanks for the defense Raven about Lyanna being the mystery knight.Here is a simple point to those who still think the mystery knight was the crannogman.The crannogman states to the 2 stark brothers that he was to small and had no skill to defend himself, how can this crannogman be Howland reed who in such a short time becomes a warrior/defender friend of Ned stark during the war.I would think that it would take more than a year to train in the arts of warfare.Not to mention that if the crannogman was really Howland Reed why didn't Lyanna or any of the Starks recognize him as one of their bannormen(the Reeds are sworn to the north)Lyanna only recognized him as a crannogman.I'm not buying the theory that he is Howland Reed sorry.Anybody want to take some bets?

Went back and read this passage again last night. I think the crannogman is definitely Howland Reed. Two points - Lyanna did recognise him: "'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf." When I read this, I immediately thought 'father's man' equated to bannerman, not just any crannogman (though this could be so). Second and most telling point: "He was of high birth, and had as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man." What crannogmen other than the Reeds are noble? It could only be Howland, unless he has brothers we haven't heard of.

And I'm still of the opinion the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Howland, too. Why else show the crannogman praying to the old gods of north and Neck and the Isle of Faces? And, after the crannogman has spent winter on the Isle of Faces, who would be more likely to have a heart tree on their shield? Plus, I don't think Lyanna was short of stature. Could be wrong, but I always pictured her as of a height with Ned and her brothers. Plus the knight had a booming voice, which I don't equate with Lyanna either.

And I don't think Howland is ever described as a great warrior/defender of Ned, just a companion. No doubt he can fight, although he's probably no Robert Baratheon.

One thing I took away from this chapter is that sometimes Bran seems quite quick-witted, and other times dumb as a door post. A wild wolf, a quiet wolf, a she-wolf and a young wolf, and he doesn't once connect this with his father and his siblings, let alone the Starks in general?

Also discovered one of my favourite lines of the series, too, at the very end: 'They [the green men] turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for one day, he thought. A day would be enough.'

 

[hodor]

That is a good line. I totally agree with you about the Bran thing.... it totally annoyed me while reading through those chapters.

 

[Raven]

wrt Jojen asking Bran if he has never heard the KotLT story before: I have always taken this as good proof that Lyanna was the KotLT.

Why? Well, Jojen seems surprised that Ned never told Bran the story. After all, Ned, like Howland, was there. And Ned, we know from AGOT, enjoyed telling his children stories: Bran recalls how he would tell them tales of the Age of Heroes.

Now, if the KotLT was Howland, then why wouldn't Ned tell the children this story? I can't see any reason. But if the KotLT was Lyanna, and (as I already suggested) Rhaegar found this out, and gave her the crown of roses as a result... and therefore Lyanna's appearance as the KotLT led directly to her running off with Rhaegar, the war, Lyanna's death, and the birth of Jon... well, then Ned has many excellent reasons for never bringing it up.

It would be a painful story for him to tell, for one thing. And if anyone realised that Lyanna was the KotLT, it might lead them to question the 'accepted account', that Lyanna was kidnapped, for another (by coming to the same conclusions that I have here).

The KotLT, by the way, was short of stature for a man, which is what everyone assumed he was. An average height woman passing as a man would appear short of stature.