spoiler:knight of the laughingtree=jon

I stand corrected. Quote."You ride like a northman milady."said Harwin,"Your aunt was the same.Lady Lyanna."ASOS.
Quote"You have wildness in you child,the wolf blood my father used to call it,Lyanna had it and brandon had it. Lyanna might have carried a sword,if my lord father had allowed it.You remind me of her .You even look like her.As told to Arya by Ned.AGOT
Must have blended the 2 together.Sorry my mistake
 
Arya: well, I'm glad you don't view things that way.

But the way I look at it is this: sure, there are reasons why Lyanna is improbable as the KotLT. But there are also reasons why Howland, Benjen, Ned, or anybody else ever suggested are improbable solutions too. (You want an improbable solution - I have seen someone seriously suggest the KotLT was a ten-year-old Sandor!:confused:)

Which you believe is a matter of preference, but the reaction to the suggestion of Lyanna is (in my experience) a lot stronger, and often goes beyond finding her 'less likely' and into finding her 'unthinkable' as a candidate. Not saying that's the case here, but as I say, the only argument against Lyanna is her sex. That's a valid argument to a degree, of course, but not to the extent of rendering the concept out of the bounds of possibility.
 
Raven said:
Not saying that's the case here, but as I say, the only argument against Lyanna is her sex. That's a valid argument to a degree, of course, but not to the extent of rendering the concept out of the bounds of possibility.

Raven, if you are saying the only argument against Lyanna is her sex, I'm wondering where you read that. I think that several very valid arguments against Lyanna as the KoLT have been made throughout this thread. Perhaps we both need to re-read the arguments posted here? Because it looks to me like something is being missed upon the first readings here.
 
How about this? the kotlt may have been either Howland or Lyanna, (I still vote Howland) but Meera was vague on purpose because she didn't want Bran to dwell on who, so much as how. It was the magic of the greenseers that transformed whoever into a knight for the day. Isn't it Bran's childhood dream to become a knight? Aren't they trying to steer him into being a better student? If Bran can learn all there is to learn and channel the power of the old gods as warg, couldn't he use that power to become a knight himself just like the kotlt? Is this perhaps the true foreshadowing GRRM is hinting at?
 
Raven said:
Not saying that's the case here, but as I say, the only argument against Lyanna is her sex. That's a valid argument to a degree, of course, but not to the extent of rendering the concept out of the bounds of possibility.

The Hound! Of course, it's so obvious! I can't believe I didn't see that!

But seriously, I don't have a problem with it not being Lyanna because of her sex. I just find it more probable that it was Howland. The arguments you have made for it being Lyanna just won't gel in my mind. A couple of points from the last few posts:

Midnight quoted Eddard: "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it." I think this points to Lyanna not being trained in combat. If she could have, yes, she would have been. But her father forbade it, and I doubt any master-at-arms at Winterfell would have gone against his wishes.

Midnight again: "also the "heart tree"on the kotlt's shield seems more or a Stark device as there are many references to the heart tree around the Starks. Just a thought." The crannogman had just spent the past entire winter (was gonna say three months but it may have been longer in Westeros) on the Isle of Faces, which is full to bursting with - you guessed it - Heart Trees. So I figure the Laughing Tree shield is more indicative that it is Howland under the helm.
 
Arya: well, I mean to say that the argument about sex is the only one that applies uniquely to Lyanna, and that the other arguments are not, IMO, very substantive in the event.

There is the argument about training, of course, but this applies equally to Howland, so if it's an argument against one it's also equally an argument against the other. And the ultimate truth is that none of us knows enough to say whether Lyanna had any training, if so how much, and how important it is anyway.

There is also the argument about age, but this applies equally to Ben - or indeed Barristan at ten, or the Knight of Flowers, who is a tourney knight famed throughout the Seven Kingdoms at sixteen, and so was presumably winning jousts well before that age.

Then there's the argument about physique, but see the young Barristan or Loras again - 'thin as a reed', but knocks dozens of knights including Jaime, three other Kingsguard, and even the Mountain off their horses.

There's the argument that Lyanna's presence would be missed, but this applies equally to Ben, and ladies were not expected to attend every day of the jousting anyway.

Temperamentally, there's no argument that Lyanna wouldn't be daring enough to do it. She has the motivation. She can get access to the horse, the armour, and the weapons. So I don't see any argument that makes Lyanna any less likely than any other candidate, apart from her sex.

Culhwch: look at that phrasing again. 'Carried' a sword, ie actually wore one out and about, so to speak. That's what Lyanna is forbidden to do, not to practise with one.

We know that Robb, for example, is not permitted to 'carry' a sword until he has achieved a certain level of maturity and training, but he certainly exercises with one before that.
 
Raven, I'm not denying that your argument above is well written and well thought out, but I'm still shaking my head. In regards to the Lyanna carrying a sword bit, I think that if Lyanna were trained in arms, it would be well known throughout Winterfell by then. I mean, if the parents are honest enough to talk about the apparent rape and murder of their children's aunt, what's the prevent them from talking about her training in arms?

Doesn't sit right with me.
 
I seem to remember a certain Arya training in secret, though...

True, not in secret from Ned - but in secret to the entire royal household at Kings Landing.

EDIT: Is there a history behind Arya's intial trainer?
 
Yes, I, Brian, Arya trained in secret, but that was in completely different circumstances. I highly doubt that a "dancing master" would have gone up to Winterfell, and Arya's training was cut short by the events that took place, whereas Lyanna would have been practicing in her own home, and I'm sure the news would have leaked out.
 
I think Brian is referring not only to Syrio, but also to Arya 'training' with Mycah, the butcher's boy - which she did in secret from everyone.

I have no doubt that, if they'd both stayed in Winterfell, Jon would have willingly trained Arya in secret. I think that Ben, Brandon or Ned probably did the same for Lyanna. She was, after all, 'hard to refuse'. ;)

But as I say, the argument over training depends on proof neither side has: proof that Lyanna had training, or that she didn't. As such, it's a sterile argument. We don't even have enough information to say whether or not it was well-known that Lyanna could wield a sword, or whether this would have been regarded as worthy of remark anyway.

Oh, and the parents don't talk about Lyanna's rape or murder. Arya is surprised when Ned mentions Lyanna, because he never speaks of her. Other people talk about it, but not Ned.
 
Remember when Edd gets Lyanna from the ... Tower of some sort? well, wasn't Howland Reed the only other person to remain living? And against how many (3?) Kingsgaurds? I think that says something about his abilities.
 
It was 7 against 3, Eddard reamined alive as well. Also besides skill, luck and style of fighting might have a lot to do with him surviving. The crannogmen seem to prefer fighting from a distance.
 
Remember when Edd gets Lyanna from the ... Tower of some sort? well, wasn't Howland Reed the only other person to remain living? And against how many (3?) Kingsgaurds? I think that says something about his abilities.

hehe i saw you write Edd and thought what did Dolorous Edd have to do with all this :rolleyes:

But yes this is a great theory and i think im gonna support it :p
 

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