spoiler:knight of the laughingtree=jon

[hodor]

The reasoning is interesting. Good thought. I, however, feel that Ned might not have told his children for any number of reasons. Anything in regards to Lyanna and Rhaegar seem to be off Ned's conversation choices. However, this could be due to things other than Lyanna being that knight. Also, it is not too odd to believe Lyanna had a sword as we have seen Arya did as well; it is a bit of a push for me to think she had armor and everything else to be a knight... too much for my imagination there.

Also the only time we hear of this story is from Crannogs... imo it is far more likely the knight was a crannog. There is also the "voice" of the knight to argue against it being Lyanna.

 

[Raven]

Well, that just takes us back around in a circle. yes, the only time we hear the story is from the crannogmen... but they clearly expect Ned, who is certainly not a crannogman, to have told it. If he had done, what would that do to your theory that, since it's a crannogman telling the story, the KotLT must be a crannogman?

As for the armour etc., well, Howland didn't have any of that either. If he could get it, Lyanna could - probably more easily.

There is a school of thought that Ben helped her here, and that this is the reason he took the Black (ie guilt at having contributed to the events that led to the war and Lyanna's death). I don't subscribe myself, but it's one possible explanation.

Lastly, the voice: frankly, anyone's voice sounds 'booming' coming from within a greathelm. And I actually take the 'booming' voice to be an indication that, whoever the KotLT was, they were concerned to make their voice sound particularly deep, probably because it was not so naturally.

Think about it. Would Ned, or even Robert, be described as having a 'booming' voice?

 

[hodor]

Well, that just takes us back around in a circle. yes, the only time we hear the story is from the crannogmen... but they clearly expect Ned, who is certainly not a crannogman, to have told it. If he had done, what would that do to your theory that, since it's a crannogman telling the story, the KotLT must be a crannogman?

As for the armour etc., well, Howland didn't have any of that either. If he could get it, Lyanna could - probably more easily.

There is a school of thought that Ben helped her here, and that this is the reason he took the Black (ie guilt at having contributed to the events that led to the war and Lyanna's death). I don't subscribe myself, but it's one possible explanation.

Lastly, the voice: frankly, anyone's voice sounds 'booming' coming from within a greathelm. And I actually take the 'booming' voice to be an indication that, whoever the KotLT was, they were concerned to make their voice sound particularly deep, probably because it was not so naturally.

Think about it. Would Ned, or even Robert, be described as having a 'booming' voice?

Robert has been described as having a "booming" voice many times. I suppose it could even have been Ben.... I don't recall his height but suppose Rhaegar went in search of him and said, "Hey man take the black." However, I can not be dissuaded in that imho the knight was a crannog. I do believe that Howland had armor... He was with Ned at the war and I could hardly picture him strutting around in a tshirt and shorts.

 

[Raven]

Hodor: well, Robert was a bad choice, though to be honest I don't recall his voice ever being described as 'booming'.

However, the point remains: this is a small man, 'short of stature', yet he has a 'booming' voice? Clearly, whoever it is is deliberately disguising their voice.

Howland has no need to do that. His voice is presumably not going to give him away: absent any information to the contrary, we have to assume he has a normal voice for a man of his size.

(Actually, Howland has no real need to appear in disguise at all, which is one of the problems I have with him being the KotLT. I suppose, if the Old Gods had granted him the ability to fight for a day, this might have been a condition or something, so that he wouldn't take the glory.)

By the way, Howland may or may not have had armour during the war (I suspect he had some form of leather or scale armour), but he certainly had none at the Harrenhal tourney. We are explicitly told so when Ben offers to get him some so that he can fight. If Ben actually did this, then Howland has armour: but Ben could as easily have done that for Lyanna.

Another problem I have with the 'Howland as KotLT' theory is that Bran assumes this (indirectly: he thinks it was 'the little crannogman'). It is the obvious answer - and therefore probably wrong.

 

[hodor]

Hodor: well, Robert was a bad choice, though to be honest I don't recall his voice ever being described as 'booming'.

However, the point remains: this is a small man, 'short of stature', yet he has a 'booming' voice? Clearly, whoever it is is deliberately disguising their voice.

Howland has no need to do that. His voice is presumably not going to give him away: absent any information to the contrary, we have to assume he has a normal voice for a man of his size.

(Actually, Howland has no real need to appear in disguise at all, which is one of the problems I have with him being the KotLT. I suppose, if the Old Gods had granted him the ability to fight for a day, this might have been a condition or something, so that he wouldn't take the glory.)

By the way, Howland may or may not have had armour during the war (I suspect he had some form of leather or scale armour), but he certainly had none at the Harrenhal tourney. We are explicitly told so when Ben offers to get him some so that he can fight. If Ben actually did this, then Howland has armour: but Ben could as easily have done that for Lyanna.

Another problem I have with the 'Howland as KotLT' theory is that Bran assumes this (indirectly: he thinks it was 'the little crannogman'). It is the obvious answer - and therefore probably wrong.

Raven, this is all in assumption that the "little crannogman" was Howland and not one of his servants... I personally think the crannogs have something to do with the Children. I do not believe Lyanna could have disguised her voice nor do I believe Ben would have had armor made for her. In no place in the book has Howland's character nor voice been described... interesting... will be even more so when we hear more about and from him. Also, there could be alot of reasons why Howland would (not "disguise" himself) not reveal his identity behind his armor ... or any other crannog for that matter. These people are not as the rest of the Westoros... the live in hiding and rarely are seen.

 

[Raven]

Hodor: what servants? Howland is alone throughout the story. He has no servants. Howland is the only crannogman in the story, and likely the only one outside of the Neck at that time.

Also, nobody had armour made for them. The KotLT's armour is made up of bits and pieces scavenged from elsewhere. It's described as such clearly in the story. Whoever the KotLT was, they had no armour with them at the tourney. (Which more or less means Howland or Lyanna.)

Any particular reason you don't think Lyanna could have disguised her voice? I should imagine it was fairly easy to do, especially from within a greathelm...

 

[Jinglehopper]

The story is told by two crannog children, a story that has been told to them by their father. The crannogmen are surprised that Ned never told Bran because of the relationship that Ned had with Howland. They might even see it as a kind of slight to not have their father celebrated by Ned.

It makes sense for Howland to be the mystery knight. He was slighted by the squires, he normally does not fight in tourneys. He scavenges armor pieces, maybe even sneaks and steals them from legitimate knights. It makes sense for him to defend his honor. The little crannogman proving that even though he is small and prefers shadows to bright light, he can still fight as good as their knights. It's a metaphor for the crannogmen themselves.

All evidence points to the knight being Howland. All the evidence for it being Lyanna appears to be circumstantial. Why, from a story standpoint and other than choosing the least likely answer, do you think it is Lyanna, Raven?

 

[Raven]

Jingle - from a story standpoint, Lyanna is far and away the best candidate as the KotLT.

If the KotLT is Howland, we have a nice little vignette with little relevance or importance to the rest of the story, as far as we can see. The only importance of the KotLT tale in this case are incidental mentions in the tale of information we have already from other sources (eg, that Ned and Ashara had a mutual attraction, or that Lyanna and Rhaegar did).

On the other hand, if it's Lyanna, it explains neatly why Rhaegar gave her the rose crown. Remember, Lyanna and Rhaegar had not (so far as we know) even spoken before he does this - and I'm sure someone would have mentioned it if they had. The idea that he gave her the crown because he knew she was the KotLT explains this impulsive - and politically foolish - act.

If Lyanna is the KotLT, this also explains how Lyanna and Rhaegar met - he is sent to find the KotLT, discovers it is this spirited girl, and falls in love with her bravery etc. Much more satisfying, from a story point of view, than Rhaegar falling in love with a girl at first sight. He's not made out to be a superficial guy.

And if it's Lyanna, then the KotLT story is key to explaining the whole set of events that followed the Harrenhal tourney.

From an internal story logic point of view, it fits also. We know that Lyanna is good with a sword: she beats three squires with a tourney sword. Even Sandor has trouble with multiple opponents of lesser skill: in fact, we see only four people in the whole series who take on multiple opponents of lesser skill and win easily - Garlan and Loras Tyrell (and Loras was enraged by Renly's death), Syrio, and Lyanna. So Lyanna is not just familiar with which end of a sword is which: she's good.

We can assume, from remarks Ned makes, that she was also familiar with riding and jousting skills.

Howland, OTOH, has no particular skill with sword and can hardly ride at all, let alone joust. For Howland to be the KotLT, he has to get his tourney skills from nowhere, in a day. (Yes, he later fights (and survives) at the ToJ: but I suspect there's more to that tale than meets the eye. And besides, that's with different weapons.) Magic is the only explanation that can do this for him, and I don't think that fits the 'tone' of how magic is used in the series.

We also know that Lyanna has a fierce and combative nature. Howland does not, going from the only information we have on him (the tale of the KotLT itself). He avoids fighting when he can. So personality-wise, it makes more sense for it to be Lyanna who comes up with the idea.

Then there's stuff I've already mentioned: the disguise, the voice, the fact that Ned doesn't tell the tale (and that this seems odd to Jojen and Meera).

Frankly, I don't see anything but circumstantial evidence for the KotLT being Howland either, btw. That's kind of why the identity of the KotLT is still a mystery, see? There's only circumstantial evidence for anyone.

But I will say that I am surer that Lyanna was the KotLT than I am of practically any other 'theory'. I am as sure of that as I am that Jon is Lyanna's son - surer than I am of who poisoned Joff, even, and LF admitted that one. It is the one theory I don't doubt, and believe you me I've heard a few.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'm with Hodor on this one, sorry to say. Although I'm all for the women-folk proving their prowess and besting the men, I think that this story could be meant to prove that there is much much more to the little frog people than meets the eye. While it does take a long time to acquire the skills necessary to fight like a knight, Howland Reed obviously has a different set of powers that may be enough to enable him to fight. In addition, you mentioned that Rhaegar is not really the impetuous type, and I'll have to agree with that. He seems less a man who would praise battle skills, and more of the romantic type. We all know that he preferred to spend his time playing his harp and reading books. I think his motives behind crowning Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty may indeed have been purely romantic and not an acknowledgement of any fighting she did.

The key argument is definitely the quote written earlier about the Children of the Forest making the crannogman a knight for a day. Yes, it is obvious, but I think the story was meant as a lesson about the potential powers available to Bran if he has proper schooling. Who knows?

In defense of Bran, it might be good for all of you "haters" to remember he's only eight years old. I mean, I wasn't a dunce at eight, but I didn't necessarily pounce on hidden meanings and symbology right away. Young minds don't really work that way.

 

[hodor]

Raven is pretty deadset on Lyanna.. LOL. No changing her mind. However, I haven't seen good enough arguments to go that road. I have seen alot of speculation and reasoning but reasoning could have made Ned's horse the night if we argued about it enough. The story is pretty clear on this and for me to think the knight was anything other than a Crannog is just plain silly.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Actually, now that you mention it I'm thinking Ned's horse was the knight. Everything points toward that horse having a deep hatred for those squires.

 

[hodor]

Now you have a very valid argument there Arya. From what I remember the horse was noted as having a very "booming" voice. However, I never really had thought about that until recently. Plus the fact that the horse wasn't given any apples by the squire as he was used to getting back home. Hmmmm, I really must think about this a bit more.

 

[MIDNIGHT]

I have to whole heartedly agree with raven on this.As far as "The children of the forest making the crannogman a knight for a day" quote which I agree with as well but in a different light.The greenmen answered the crannogmans plee by having Lyanna overhear his prayer.She thens fights in the tournament to teach the squires a lesson(can't see Howland really giving a care for vegence seems more wolf blood to me).Soooo...The crannog man really is a knight for a day since all of you howland believers(hodor,Arya underfoot) beleive that he was.I also do not think we will be getting a Howland chapter anytime soon.He knows far to much.

 

[hodor]

He knows too much??? LOL. No chapter on Howland because he knows too much. I love that reasoning hahahaha.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I can't see Howland really giving a care for vegence seems more wolf blood to me. Soooo...The crannog man really is a knight for a day since all of you howland believers(hodor,Arya underfoot) beleive that he was.I also do not think we will be getting a Howland chapter anytime soon.He knows far to much.

Well, Midnight, I'll agree that Howland doesn't seem the type to seek revenge. However, supposing (as we do) that he is either descended from the Children of the Forest, or is closely connected with them, it seems to me that the Children may be seeking to prove themselves through him. The near-total decimation of their population would make for an age-old thirst for vengeance, wouldn't you say? I'm not saying that the Children are bloodthirsty, just that they probably don't suffer slights against their own too well. Hence the Knight of the Laughing Tree, with a weirwood standard, against the worshippers of the rival Seven, and so on and so forth. If I were one of the Children I'd be all about putting those big oafs into their place, even just for one day.

 

[hodor]

I am sorry, but I just have to add; I have thought about it for several days now. The thought of Lyanna being the knight is just ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, the arguments and reasoning are good. It is just not in Martin style nor does it bode well with the storyline. It just is too ludicrous for me to consider any longer.

 

[Raven]

"Ludicrous", hodor?

That's a pretty strong claim, based on, well, not very much.

You don't explain why Lyanna as the KotLT doesn't 'bode well' for the storyline. But that's not an argument, anyway, more a personal preference.

As for 'Martin's style' - well, I've read a lot of GRRM's work, over his whole career. But I would not presume to tell other fans what fits or doesn't fit his 'style'. My opinion of what fits or doesn't fit his style is basically just a hunch, and a very shaky hunch at that. And so, I would have to say, is yours.

No offence, but I think that you are being rather presumptuous in thinking that Lyanna as KotLT doesn't fit GRRM's 'style', or that he must stay within that 'style'. Wait and see what the man writes before you judge.

I can appreciate that you think Howland is a better candidate, even that you are certain of that, and that you are unconvinced by the arguments that Lyanna is the KotLT. But to write that theory off as 'silly' and 'ludicrous': well, I have to say, I know of dozens of fans who believe it firmly, at least as many as believe otherwise. Some of them are pretty smart people. I hope you wouldn't write them, and me, off as 'silly'.

If it is the physical aspects of Lyanna being the KotLT that make you think this, recall these things:

1. Lyanna kicked the @rses of three grown lads bigger than her in the same story.

Not only does this show she is capable, but you have to ask: if Lyanna is not capable of being the KotLT, why is it GRRM has her rescue Howland? Not Ned, who becomes his friend, or Ben? Why include this scene at all, if not to suggest that Lyanna might be a candidate for the KotLT?

2. Arya, who has parallels drawn with Lyanna more than once, has killed people multiple times, and she's a lot younger than Lyanna was and has likely had less training.

3. Barristan the Bold successfully impersonated a knight and unseated grown men in a joust at the age of ten.

In what way is the idea of a sixteen-year-old girl doing this 'ludicrous', but a ten-year-old boy doing it isn't?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

If it is the physical aspects of Lyanna being the KotLT that make you think this, recall these things:

1. Lyanna kicked the @rses of three grown lads bigger than her in the same story.

Not only does this show she is capable, but you have to ask: if Lyanna is not capable of being the KotLT, why is it GRRM has her rescue Howland? Not Ned, who becomes his friend, or Ben? Why include this scene at all, if not to suggest that Lyanna might be a candidate for the KotLT?

2. Arya, who has parallels drawn with Lyanna more than once, has killed people multiple times, and she's a lot younger than Lyanna was and has likely had less training.

3. Barristan the Bold successfully impersonated a knight and unseated grown men in a joust at the age of ten.

In what way is the idea of a sixteen-year-old girl doing this 'ludicrous', but a ten-year-old boy doing it isn't?

All right now, let's not get bent out of shape here. I don't think Hodor was intending for any of his posts here to be read as a personal attack against anyone. I think we're all just head-strong individuals here.

As for 1) in your reasoning, I believe Lyanna yelled at the three squires, and then her three brothers came out to support her. I re-read that story just the other day and I don't recall any instances of her jumping into the fray.

In regards to 2), you use Arya and her scanty training as an example in defense of the Lyanna argument, but couldn't that specific argument be used in Howland Reed's favor as well? The same goes for your Barristan example.

I'm not saying you're absolutely wrong, I'm just saying that those specific arguments can be used for both sides. As for the word "ludicrous," well, I'd just go ahead and replace that with "unlikely."

 

[Raven]

Arya: I'm not bent out of shape, don't worry. Just putting my point. I know better than to take anything on a message board personally, whether meant that way or not.

As for 1) in your reasoning, I believe Lyanna yelled at the three squires, and then her three brothers came out to support her. I re-read that story just the other day and I don't recall any instances of her jumping into the fray.

Nope, sorry. I have it here in front of me:

"The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all... she took [the crannogman] back to her lair... There he met her pack brothers

Lyanna kicks their @rses, then she takes Howland to meet her brothers.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

You've got me there, Raven.

However, I have one more point to add to my previous arguments against the Lyanna idea, in regards to what you have just pointed out: Wouldn't it be a bit obvious for Lyanna to save Howland with a sword in front of those people, and then be conspicuously missing when the tourney fighting was happening?