New GRRM Update on ADWD

[Overread]

It is a very different style of story telling and there is a lot that Erikson holds back - infact many of the "answers" won't start appearing till Memories of Ice and even then they raise even more questions. I'd say keep going with the series at least until the end of the second book if you can (the second book can sometimes throwpeople because its starts out with a whole new set of characters on a different continent - but ties in strongly with the first books events, whilst also having some characters reappear partway through).

I get the impression that the major difference that ASOIAF and Malazan share (but display very differently) is that unlike many books which are a person(s) story and adventurs these two series have that as almost the secondary part (moreso the case with Malazan than ASOIAF I feel) to the main story which is the tale of the worldset itself - playedout through the major (and minor) powers at the time.

 

[Quick Ben]

Sorry to momentarily derail the thread again (Boaz - you should start a thread on songs for characters), but I wanted to post this last night and was too tired. I could send it as a message just to Overread, but maybe Quick Ben can also help (and do I remember a Whiskeyjack?).

Anyway, Overread - you mentioned the Malazan Book of the Fallen and based on a lot of people's praise here I recently started Gardens of the Moon (which I probably shouldn't what with ADWD on the horizon). I'm only a few hundred pages in, but I've started to struggle with it. It's a well-written book for sure (especially for what was Erikson's debut novel), but so far Erikson's absolute refusal to divulge in any kind of exposition and backstory means there's very little to sink one's proverbial teeth into. It's feeling like an exercise in logistical plotting, while real character depth is being ignored. I'm not looking for or expecting another ASOIAF, but by the same point in AGOT I was already attached to half the characters and loathful of the other half. So far with Gardens I find myself indifferent to the characters (though I do like Kruppe).

Clearly, it's a huge series and I've only scratched the surface, but I was expecting a little more in terms of characterization, even at these early stages. As someone who's read them all, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

You're certainly not alone in this regard. This is the most common complaint from all new readers, that they are basically dropped right in the middle of a gigantic story line without any sort of explanation whatsoever.

In short, I'll just say that firstly this series is not everyone's cup of tea and a lot of people will quit reading it simply because you can't understand much. However, I like to tell people to, at the very least, give it a chance until the end of Book 2 and in Book 3 the story rapidly picks up, it's probably equivalent, if not better than ASoS. So I'd just adivse you stick with it and just take the story as it comes to you (don't try to consume it all, it'd be more likely to be the reverse ) until the latter books when you'll start to get a bigger picture.

Also, visit Steve Erikson's forum on here as well, you might also find this thread usefull as well: Is it worth it?

Happy reading

 

[Quick Ben]

I'd say keep going with the series at least until the end of the second book if you can

However, I like to tell people to, at the very least, give it a chance until the end of Book 2

Heh, nice call

 

[No One]

Overread & Quick Ben - thanks for that. Much appreciated.

I was well aware of being dropped half-way into the plot, not least because of Erikson's preface to the first book, but I really don't have a problem with that, or with the idea of shifting to another continent and a new set of characters.

What concerns me is, as Overread said, the emphasis here is plot first, characters second, which I wouldn't say of ASOIAF. Of course, it's moot to be comparing Erikson and Martin given their relative experience at the time of writing, but I'd say that Martin is very much focused on character, while at the same time managing to supporting an intricate, world-spanning, plot through them. As you both recommend, I will try to persist through at least the first two books (and the third if it's even half as good as ASOS).

Anyway, thanks again to both (and for the link, Ben). Cheers.

 

[viZion]

I'll give my opinion because I hated Erikson's series. I did make it through Memories of Ice because so many people were saying it was, like, the best fantasy book written ever in the history of the world. All I gotta say is, if you think Bran is boring and whiny, wait until you get a load of the Mhybe. Worst character I've ever had the "pleasure" of knowing in a book. There's also a big totally shocking twist but Erikson foreshadows it so heavily that I actually laughed when it happened. It was definitely not as emotionally impactful (did I invent a word?) as the best moments in ASOIAF. Finally, the romances are awful. It's like suddenly two characters will be in love and you have no idea why they would even be attracted to each other to begin with. At least once, the two characters have hardly spoken to each other in the book and then suddenly they are a couple (wtf?). Oh wait, I forgot that the entire series is like a gigantic penis-sizing contest where each new character is more powerful than the last. If you get attached to one character and he dies, don't worry, he or she will be back anyway. In short, it sucks .

Why would I bother to write such a scathing review? I don't know, I personally think it's good to read opinions from people who both love and hate an item. When I read reviews on Amazon for something I'm interested in, I always read both the 5 star reviews and the 1 star reviews. You gotta get all sides of the story and then finally decide for yourself who to believe. That's how I look at it, anyway.

 

[No One]

Vizion - yikes, why don't you say what you really think

I'm the same with reviews, I wanna know what exactly someone liked or disliked because I might be the opposite. So thanks (even if I'm worried that I might agree on some points). Nevertheless, I will continue with the series.

On a side note, I didn't find Bran boring or whiny. If that's all there is to him in the final analysis then maybe, but it's safe to say Martin has major plans for him and he is just one piece of a very big puzzle. I mean, how's an eight year supposed to react to losing his legs? The character simply has to go through those motions, or else he can't feel real. He's hardly gonna be philosophical about it, perk up and get on with his life.

Anyway - cheers for the input.

 

[Overread]

viZion - advice - neve ever try to read one of Robin Hobbs stories! I think you would have fits about Fitz - and possibly worse with the Solider Son series (though you might get away with Liveships)

 

[viZion]

Thank for the advice, Overread, because I've been considering reading Hobbs for awhile now. I always pick up the books in the bookstore, read the back, and then put them back down for some reason. But everyone keeps saying they are great. I think I'll continue to skip them.

No One: Yeah, I've explained my point of view about Bran before somewhere in these forums. Who knows in which thread though. Basically, I agree that what happened to Bran sucks. And I know that if it happened to me I would also be pretty whiny especially if I were the son of a lord with an obviously nice future ahead of me. HOWEVER, I certainly wouldn't want to subject others to my whiny thoughts and feelings. That's what GRRM does with Bran. He forces this big baby on us when I don't really want to hear about it. I know he probably has a big part to play in the story; I just wish he would play it without me being privy to yet another whine about never being a knight .

 

[The Imp]

Thank for the advice, Overread, because I've been considering reading Hobbs for awhile now. I always pick up the books in the bookstore, read the back, and then put them back down for some reason. But everyone keeps saying they are great. I think I'll continue to skip them.

No One: Yeah, I've explained my point of view about Bran before somewhere in these forums. Who knows in which thread though. Basically, I agree that what happened to Bran sucks. And I know that if it happened to me I would also be pretty whiny especially if I were the son of a lord with an obviously nice future ahead of me. HOWEVER, I certainly wouldn't want to subject others to my whiny thoughts and feelings. That's what GRRM does with Bran. He forces this big baby on us when I don't really want to hear about it. I know he probably has a big part to play in the story; I just wish he would play it without me being privy to yet another whine about never being a knight .

I'd bee in 100% agreement with you if Bran was 20 years old, but he's a child. It's a child's POV, just as Dany's POV is that of a teenaged girl. Tyrion's that of a dwarf, etc. Actually think that Bran has been acting fairly reasonably for someone who went from being a "Ninja Warrior" in training (I'm referring to the Japanese TV show) to being a cirpple. Every kid complains and whines from time to time. I don't think Bran does so in a way that is disproportionate to his life circumstances.

 

[HareBrain]

I'd bee in 100% agreement with you if Bran was 20 years old, but he's a child. It's a child's POV, just as Dany's POV is that of a teenaged girl. Tyrion's that of a dwarf, etc. Actually think that Bran has been acting fairly reasonably for someone who went from being a "Ninja Warrior" in training (I'm referring to the Japanese TV show) to being a cirpple. Every kid complains and whines from time to time. I don't think Bran does so in a way that is disproportionate to his life circumstances.

I think he complains a hell of a lot less than he would in real life, but it's not the job of fiction to portray people in all their annoying reality. It also seems to be the case that if someone does something three times in fiction, it feels like they're forever doing it, so maybe Bran only actually whines thrice.

To be honest, though, I didn't even notice it that much. Maybe I'm just used to whiney people.

 

[Quick Ben]

Yep. No problems with Bran whatsoever.

He's also the one who is going to lead the Starks back to glory so he's totally fine by me.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Aargh! thought there's been a new update!

 

[No One]

Actually think that Bran has been acting fairly reasonably for someone who went from being a "Ninja Warrior" in training (I'm referring to the Japanese TV show) to being a cirpple.

Going for the ultimate in thread derailment, but I haven't caught Ninja Warrior for an age. Has Motoko Nagano (what a hero) ever completed the course a second time? What about Ayako Miyake - another star.

Oh and Rie Komiya...I miss Rie Komiya

I've been thinking about starting a thread - maybe a "Which ASOIAF character would prove to be the ultimate NINJA WARRIOR!"

 

[The Imp]

I think he complains a hell of a lot less than he would in real life, but it's not the job of fiction to portray people in all their annoying reality. It also seems to be the case that if someone does something three times in fiction, it feels like they're forever doing it, so maybe Bran only actually whines thrice.

To be honest, though, I didn't even notice it that much. Maybe I'm just used to whiney people.

I agree, and to take that thought a bit further, I there has been maybe one time that he actually said anything about not being able to be a Knight out loud, The vast majority of the times this is mentioned is when GRRM brings up the issue when either describing what Bran might be thinking, or just reminding /educating those with short memories or lack of previous knowledge of the story.

 

[viZion]

I agree, and to take that thought a bit further, I there has been maybe one time that he actually said anything about not being able to be a Knight out loud, The vast majority of the times this is mentioned is when GRRM brings up the issue when either describing what Bran might be thinking, or just reminding /educating those with short memories or lack of previous knowledge of the story.

Yes, and like I said, in my post, I agree that he has every right to whine. I would do the same if I were 8 years old and I would probably do it more. I'd whine a lot *now* and I'm 32 years old! But I wish I didn't have to read about it. I guess, basically, I wish there were no Bran POV to begin with . And, yes, I realize that his POV basically started the entire chain of events in Westeros that's gotten us through 4 books. Hey, I'm a Bran hater and nothing is changing that. It's my M.O. on this forum .

 

[Boaz]

Aargh! thought there's been a new update!

Sorry, Bri. Some of us ASOIAF fans cannot/willnot stop chattering... We're like the gossiping ladies in The Music Man.
"Pick a little, talk a little, pick a little, talk a little,
cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot, pick a little more,
pick a little, talk a little, pick a little, talk a little,
cheep cheep cheep, talk a lot, pick a little more."
Of course, we don't feel that it's unnecessary. We all feel that GRRM is close to finishing... you can enter your guess for the date that he actually gives us the update here.

 

[viZion]

We all feel that GRRM is close to finishing... you can enter your guess for the date that he actually gives us the update here.

Only two more days until I win that contest.

 

[philzilla]

Thanks Imp - I think...

Are we to assume that 'King Kong' is ADWD and the 'Freaky monkey' is the Meereenese knot?

When did GRRM start posting in metaphor?

"Freaky monkey" is the new Wild Cards novel

 

[No One]

"Freaky monkey" is the new Wild Cards novel

Thanks Philzilla.

And Vizion - when your choice of date comes and goes, try not to moan and whine too much about it...

 

[Ursa major]

Hey, I'm a Bran hater and nothing is changing that. It's my M.O. on this forum .

We're like the gossiping ladies in The Music Man.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Seventy-six Bran Moans....



(Except that 76 isn't a big enough number for some.)