Done to death... again.

[KESpires]

I've had the flu. My wife banished me so as not to infect the house. So I began reading Ned's chapters in A Game of Thrones, because they are my favorite chapters.

On page 380 (if memory serves me well) of my paperback (american) edition, he is considering bastards. It says that Jon's face hovered in front of him, so like a younger version of his own, and Ned wondered why men were given such low urges which led to bastards.

Now, I've trolled through the R+L=J threads quite a lot, but reading AGoT this weekend and hitting that passage made me stop to consider. He is thinking, as clearly as he ever gets around to it while he is living, about regretting giving into the passions that conceived Jon.

GRRM is a fantastic writer and foreshadows a lot. But if Ned isn't regretting giving into his own base passion at that point in the story, then it seems that we are being fed intentional misdirection, which is something that I think GRRM is above doing because real writers don't do that. Readers only know what the writer tells them and to intentionally mislead isn't really writing, it's lying. I don't think he'd do that.

I came across all the other passages, the winter roses, the blood soaked bed and the three kingsguard at the tower of joy. But it just seems that all of it is hinting at another hidden truth, something that doesn't have to do with Jon.

Or maybe I'm just feverish...

That is entirely possible. It's been a tough few days.

 

[Culhwch]

I've never strayed from thinking Ned was Jon's father all along, and that's a very good argument for it. Only time will tell...

 

[Eulalia]

Get well soon KESpires! My favourite remedies are apples, tea, Tylenol and a back rub. I've had good reports of chicken soup...

I think you are right to connect bastards and Jon, but I do think GRRM misdirects at that point. It's a long series, and he can't give away everything right away. I believe he loves to walk the line in creating mystery, giving a satisfying amount of set up, and taking unexpected directions. I'll bet it is hard when writing different POV characters.

I don't know. To me, fiction is all about being a convincing liar or story teller. It can be hard to go from non fiction to fiction without noticing a little change in attitude. The job is to have emotional, or other, "Truth" in your art. But even non fiction has a point of view or a thesis no matter how objective you think you are. As an example, there are different conclusions in histories of Anne Boleyn or Richard the third or WMD.

You have an interesting point. I hope GRRM talks about craft, so he can share the wealth. Maybe he has.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

... I just had the weirdest idea ever.
Bear with me here:
The Targaryens often intermarried. Dany always knew she was going to marry Viserys (or Rhaegar), and there's obviously Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters.
Jaime and Cersei have had intercourse and had three children.
The Tyrel twins have been hinted to have been doing the same.
What if Lyanna loved Ned so much....

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Open AGOT to Danys first POV....

When she recollects about Westeros...what little she knows...she ponders...."and Rhaegar fighting, ...and dying on the Trident for the woman he loved..."

Clearly Dany isnt talking about Elia because Elia is mention in the same paragraph as a separate entity and unless its some sort of obfuscation within obfuscation then Rhaegar at least loved Lyanna.

I dont know if yer parents ever explained this to you, but when two adults love each other...really love each other, they share a special hug. This hug is awkward and prone to strange dialogue that youll never hear elsewhere and is often over before it really gets interesting, but sometimes can result in a ******* being born who can save the world.

 

[Wiggum]

"they share a special hug"?, rofl

Our cats just think we're fighting. And when the come to watch, it really ruins the mood.

 

[Boaz]

Warning!! The following paragraphs include Spoilers, conjecture regarding Jon's parents, and one horrific story from my childhood. You have been warned.

"When two adults love each other"... Whatever happened to "When a daddy and mommy love each other"? Anyways, I never heard of the birds and bees... no, my own father used sheep as an analogy... Sheep? What the ....?!?!?!

I was only six years old, so needless to say that my mind was completely blown. In my father's defence, he was trying to stop his six year old son from calling all the other kids on the block M***** F******. I believe my perception of conception was forever ruined by that mental image.

N+L=J has been tossed around before. In fact, Eddard is not the only Stark I've heard of as Jon's father... Brandon, Benjen, and Rickard have been mentioned. The list of Lyanna's potential lovers/rapists also include Robert Baratheon, Howland Reed, and King Aerys II. I've never taken any of these seriously, but then I've been wrong before.

KESpires, if Eddard did leave a noble and good legacy through Jon, then it might bring back some readers. For instance, a good friend of mine quit reading for the dual reasons of impatience and frustration. He go tired of waiting for AFFC and he was very angry over Eddard's and Robb's deaths. His own father had been a tough as nails, no nonsense, honorable Marine Corps Captain. He lost his father as a teenager... much the same as Robb and Jon. My friend felt an affinity to the noble house of Stark and he felt much hostility towards the dastardly Lannisters. I think the Red Wedding and the pro-Jaime POVs really ticked him off. Maybe if I told him that Jon was Eddard's son, that Jon defeats The Other, and that Jon personally kills Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion, then maybe he'd start reading again.

Aegon, I do find the line about Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved very interesting. Yet the line is from Dany's memory. I doubt that Viserys or Illyrio told her that Rhaegar had spurned Elia for Lyanna. If Lyanna was mentioned at all (and she is not in this passage), she'd be the daughter of a traitor, the sister of insidious Lord Stark, and/or as a scheming temptress. I have no doubt that GRRM meant the line to be cryptic... but do you think that he meant it to be out of context as well?

It's not until later that Jorah and Barristan begin to give her a more accurate picture of Aerys, Rhaegar, the Usuper, and the Seven Kingdoms.

I always thought Benjen's remarks to Jon were extremely curious. At the feast in Winterfell, Jon got drunk and quarrelled with Benjen. Ben called him son, to which Jon retorted, "I'm not your son!" And Benjen said, "More's the pity. Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel." I feel these lines are important.

It seems to me that Ben wishes he'd had a stronger presence in Jon's upbrining. Why would Ben want to be closer to his brother's ******* and not his true nephews? Ben might want to be closer to Jon if Ben was Jon's actual father. That exchange is the sole argument for Benjen being Jon's father... and if Ned included Ben in his recollections of Jon, then I might give it credence. But it also makes no sense that Eddard would claim Ben's son as his own... obeying Lyanna's dying wish makes more sense than covering for a younger brother's indiscretions... Ben took the Black anyway.

To me, the lines "More's the pity. Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel." show that either Benjen sired bastards of his own... and perhaps turned his back on his true love... or that maybe Ben knows the truth of Jon's parentage and is expressing his pity for the brevity/tragedy of their relationship. Reading it as the latter, I think Ben has sympathy for Jon's parents... it really makes sense to me if they are Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I am not too sure about Benjen knowing the truth about Jon's parentage. As far as I can remember, he was in the Night Watch for a long time. I believe that the line "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own" is meant universally. You know, to show that a sneer and a kick is all a ******* can expect in most cases.

 

[KESpires]

I think Benjen is remarking that Jon doesn't understand the urges he says that he can stay above, particularly urges so strong that even Ned Stark couldn't stay above them 100% of the time.

As we learned, Jon isn't above those urges at all. He got it on about one hundred times with the wild redhead.

 

[Ursa major]

...but reading AGoT this weekend and hitting that passage made me stop to consider. He is thinking, as clearly as he ever gets around to it while he is living, about regretting giving into the passions that conceived Jon.

I've found the passage, and it doesn't read as if he is regretting his own actions. After the words you quoted, Ned askes Littlefinger about Robert's bastards and some of their fates; in the contect of the immediate story, this fits in with his investigations of Arryn's death. However, just after Littlefinger pours scorn on Arryn's investigations as a motive for the murder, comes this passage:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

Ned seems to be comparing Robert and Rhaegar with respect to their treatment of women.



Some may think that GRRM could be hinting at R+L=J. (Some, of course, may not.)

 

[KESpires]

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

That was the passage. The thought returned to him after he was speaking to the mother of one of Robert's bastards. Her smile after he told her he'd make sure the girl was cared for was what brought back the memory.

Also, Jon looks more like him than any of his highborn children.

And, lastly, if he sees Jon on a regular basis, which he does, and Jon is supposedly Rhaegar's son, then why would Ned not think of Rhaegar for years at a time, especially considering that whatever he did promise Lyanna is eating him up?

 

[Onlythepine]

Well, Ned wondered why "men" father bastards.. He could easily have meant Rhaegar by that, if he thought that Lyanna never married him.

 

[Ursa major]

That was the passage.

But we can hardly ignore what follows immediately after that quote, can we?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

.

Aegon, I do find the line about Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved very interesting. Yet the line is from Dany's memory. I doubt that Viserys or Illyrio told her that Rhaegar had spurned Elia for Lyanna. If Lyanna was mentioned at all (and she is not in this passage), she'd be the daughter of a traitor, the sister of insidious Lord Stark, and/or as a scheming temptress. I have no doubt that GRRM meant the line to be cryptic... but do you think that he meant it to be out of context as well?

It's not until later that Jorah and Barristan begin to give her a more accurate picture of Aerys, Rhaegar, the Usuper, and the Seven Kingdoms.

I always thought Benjen's remarks to Jon were extremely curious. At the feast in Winterfell, Jon got drunk and quarrelled with Benjen. Ben called him son, to which Jon retorted, "I'm not your son!" And Benjen said, "More's the pity. Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel." I feel these lines are important.

It seems to me that Ben wishes he'd had a stronger presence in Jon's upbrining. Why would Ben want to be closer to his brother's ******* and not his true nephews? Ben might want to be closer to Jon if Ben was Jon's actual father. That exchange is the sole argument for Benjen being Jon's father... and if Ned included Ben in his recollections of Jon, then I might give it credence. But it also makes no sense that Eddard would claim Ben's son as his own... obeying Lyanna's dying wish makes more sense than covering for a younger brother's indiscretions... Ben took the Black anyway.

To me, the lines "More's the pity. Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel." show that either Benjen sired bastards of his own... and perhaps turned his back on his true love... or that maybe Ben knows the truth of Jon's parentage and is expressing his pity for the brevity/tragedy of their relationship. Reading it as the latter, I think Ben has sympathy for Jon's parents... it really makes sense to me if they are Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Im not going to debate the merits of Benjen being Jons father. I dont think it is, you know the clues as well as I do. Benjen is a Stark, a Stark wouldnt let his son be raised by Ned without telling him the truth. I dont know when Benjen joined the Nightswatch for truth but I imagine the Tournament of Harrenhall he was still a free man. There would be no danger to himself or Jon for acknowledging him as his son. It doesnt make sense for Benjen to hide this unless there was something he and Lyanna shared. Thats just too dirty to contemplate. No I think the words "mores the pity" are the words of a younger uncle talking to his headstrong nephew.

As for Danys POV. I dont know how she knew. I dont know if its some sort of prologue but with the facts we know now it fits that its Lyanna. I should go back and reread that.

 

[Boaz]

Egg, I expected more from you, buddy. Usually, you either shred my ideas with facts or point out my faulty reasoning. I do admit to an overall lack of clarity in my posts.

I'm not advocating Ben + Anyone = Jon. Maybe I'm wrong though in thinking that Ben knows anything about Jon's past.

KESpires, good quote. Maybe the key to understanding it is that Eddard makes a vow to a woman (like he did with Lyanna... Promise me, Ned) and not the connection that men (he and Robert) have lusts.

And as for Jon's face being similar to Eddard's... well, 1.) Catelyn laments that only Arya, of all her brood, has the face and coloring of a Stark... and 2.) she also is bothered that Jon looks more like a Stark than her sons. 3.) Remember that Eddard told Arya that she looked like Lyanna. 4.) Stannis, Jon Arryn, and Eddard all found out in that book of genealogy that the Lannister's fair hair was always overcome by the Baratheon's black. Sooooooo.... maybe Arya and Jon resemble each other because they are cousins... instead of drawing Jon in to look like Eddard, maybe GRRM meant that the other way around. And maybe the Targaryen silver-blonde bows before the Stark dark hair. Of course, the Tully red seemed prevalent over the Starks... oh, well.

My apologies if I'm not clear this time... at least last time I was sober.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Well, I always thought that passage was a reference to Ned's sympathy for bastards, particularly Jon.

He justifies their existence with the supposition that the gods fill men with lust, not that men lack self control, the more cynical viewpoint.

This is on one hand kind of a pseudo-justification for Jon's existence that stands in counterpoint to the more prevalent attitude and sets us up to be more accepting of Jon specifically, if we weren't already.

On the other hand, its a thought experiment Ned has to indulge in because he himself (this part is presuming that R+L=J, and thus that Ned himself did not father bastards) does not understand.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I love this thread.

Anyway, is it a solid fact that one kind of line will always take precedence over another? I personally do not think so. I mean, if the Tully blood overrules the Stark blood without exception, we could start speculating on Arya. Is she really Catelyn's child? All the Tully's (Tullies? ) are of a gentle nature and quite well behaved. We all know that Arya is hardly the model child Catelyn expected her to be. Hell, she's murdered tons of people before age 10!

 

[TK-421]

Maybe Benjen was making woopie with a Wildling and he's gone back there now. Back to her, I mean.

 

[Boaz]

tsw, Eddard does have a soft spot in his heart for the weak and helpless. We see this in his concern for bastards. Most notably this is manifested in his treatment of Jon.

In his teens, Eddard witnessed his best friend begin fathering bastards. He saw the tragedy in Robert's wake even as he watched a martial legend in the making. Robert gave nothing to Mya Stone, Bella Rivers, nor Barra Waters. Robert did arrange a career for Gendry Waters and he did send some gifts to Edric Storm. In AFFC, Lord Hewett made his own daughter, Falia Flowers, a servant to his wife. Now compare the treatments of these bastards to Eddard's treatment of Jon... and if Jon is not Eddard's son, then the contrast is even greater. Jon was given the exact same training and education that Eddard gave his heir. Jon ate, played, laughed, and hunted with Catelyn's children. Eddard also offered a job to Gendry, promised to look after Barra, and tried to spare Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen.

Eddard strove to provide justice and grace to all who needed it.

Syphon, do you think Catelyn would be foolish enough to bed another man? Sheesh. How old was Arya when the story opened? Nine? Okay, that would mean that Catelyn had an affair with someone who looked like a Stark ten years ago... What was happening ten years before the start of AGOT? Well, Eddard was off leading Robert's armies against the Ironmen in Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion... so Catelyn was all by her lonesome... and maybe Benjen came looking for recruits... Hey, I don't believe a word of this, I'm just seeing if you do.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I think you misunderstood, Boaz. I meant that Arya might not be Catelyn's child. She surely is Ned's child, judging by her appearance. But assuming the Tully blood overtakes the other half, one could say Catelyn was not Arya's mother.