Done to death... again.

Well, I'm interested in knowing whether the people will find out first or whether Jon will find out first.

Unless Jon finds out first, I don't see him being at the head of any army other than the one necessary to keep the others out. As far as riding a dragon at the head of an army, I can see that if he discovers his true lineage before anyone else does and becomes convinced that another dragon king settling all the petty, though mass-murderous, intrigues of the major houses is good for the smallfolk. Because that is who get left behind in all that, the smallfolk.
 
KESpires said:
Also, if it is true, how is it going to affect things going forward? Does he have Targ and Stark claim to the throne? Will he be King of the North and sit the iron throne at King's Landing?
Click to expand...

Jon has no claim to any crown, throne or lands - he foreswore all rights to any when he gave his vow to the Nights Watch. Now, before he became Lord Commander, I'd wager, a Lord Commander could have released him from his vow. But now he's LC, it would be pretty tacky to release himself from his own vow; I think he'd be too proud.
 
The way I see it, there's only two things that can release Jon from his duties on the Wall now are death and a king. And since there's so many kings, it's likely that any attempt at release from his vows by Stannis would be seen as a declaration of war to the others.
After all, they seem worried that Jon is harboring Stannis in the first place.
 
Kings have no authority to interfere with the Night's Watch. The only ones who could release Jon from his vows are the old gods, for it is to them that he swore.
 
Eulalia said:
What do the experts on this site say?
Click to expand...
This is the cue for responses by Werthead and Raven.

In truth and in keeping with honor, the only way for Jon to get out of the Night's Watch is for the Old Gods to let him out... just like weirwood mentioned in the last post. That being said, the Night's Watch is not independent of the Iron Throne. They swear to not interfere in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms, but they do swear to protect them. The NW receives 99% of their members from the Seven Kingdoms. The NW is supported by the Conclave of Maesters. And I guarantee you that the Iron Throne views the Gift (the lands of the NW) as part of the Seven Kingdoms.

We may not have enough precedence in our readings of ASOIAF, but we possess more than enough of our own examples, in the inspirations for GRRM's writing, (Imperial Rome, Medieval England, the Crusades, the War of the Roses) of religious rationalizations, historical revisionism, and political justifications to know that a king (or better yet, a Queen!), the ruling junta, or a strong religious leader could release a man from his vows.
 
Or Jon could merge the two if he thought it was necessary.
 
Who is Jon Snow?

Ned was his father influence, but Catelyn was not really his mother.

He is fond of duty, heck and idealistic to join the NW. Realistic enough to know his place as a *******. Joined NW, even though he does like girls.

Kind. Gave Arya Needle. Helped Sam and the gang.

Pragmatic. Will break the rules for compelling reasons. Killed Halfhand, boinked Ygritte. (not part of the rules). Afterall, gave Arya Needle even though she is a girl and Catelyn wouldn't have liked it!

Cool. Keeps his head and thinks things through. Doesn't blow it by mouthing off.

Overcomes adversity. Prevails in the long run, even when picked on. Stands up to bullies.

Leadership. Organized his own supporters. Recognized as having potential by other leaders.

Brave. Willing to fight battles for his side and risk his own life.

Blood. ******* or no, seems likely he has royal blood, which may help in the long run. Dragon throne blood may help with the flying a dragon bit.

Possible mate for Dany, as they are both strong, developing, high status characters.

What did I miss?

For all we know, the old gods will release him form his vows. Or Dany or Stannis...

Or he could be some horrible angsty sacrifice. And Ghost will howl. :(


When would he figure out his lineage and how? No idea.
 
A lot of people have expressed the wish the Wall come down and Jon be released from his vows because they want him, the *******, to be some great king or general or some such out of a sense of poetic justice.

I just don't think that will happen. I don't *Jon* would want to as a person. He has faced several tests of his character and vows and stayed loyal to the Watch in spirit if not in word. He is dedicated to the Wall and the men under his command and the cause of defense against the Others more than anyone.

I'm not saying people are incapable of change, Jaime Lannister I'm looking at you, but the kind of shift necessary for a lot of the fan wish lists would just be bad writing on the part of GRRM after setting up the very valid and satisfying position as Lord Commander. There's a kind of stark poetry to it. Shameless pun acknowledged.
 
I don't think Lord Commander is a satisfying enough position for readers - we've invested too much into Jon, have seen too much of his courage, he has sacrificed too much for him to finish up as the leader of a paltry, barely acknowledged group of ex-crims - although the character of the Watch may change. IMHO, the way Jon's story is written suggests that the step up to Lord Commander of the Watch is not the end, but rather, in a way, the beginning.
 
Jon Snow is neither Belgarion, Shea Ohmsford, nor Rand al'Thor. Oh, they are placed in extreme circumstances... they were destined to save the world... but they all had fairy tale lives and implausible resolutions to their stories. They were pure fantasy... and by fantasy, I don't mean the genre.

Jon may seem like them. He may look like them at first glance. But I refuse to believe that GRRM will stoop to turning ASOIAF into another fairy tale ending. ASOIAF is too real for that. I know it's Mr. Martin's story, not mine... but I'll be very disappointed if Jon turns out to be just another run of the mill, adolescent savior who gets the babe, the adulation, and total power. (Shea did not get the girl or power, but he was annoying.)

Mmmmm... Dacey... Oops! Wrong thread!
 
Let's not forget that by the end of ASOIAF, the Night's Watch may well have regained it's former glory (or even greater glory if they successfully turn back the Night once more). Ergo, Jon's position as Lord Commander could be even more prestigious than if he were King of one or more of the Seven Kingdoms.
 
Hilarious Joke said:
But if the Others are vanquished (which I think they will be), then the Night's Watch won't be required.
Click to expand...


Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

That doesnt sound like an oath that end with the ending of a threat. Sounds like Jons gonna be there a bit....

And....mmm...Dacey
 
Hilarious Joke said:
Maybe Aegon, but even Jon, the most honorable of honorables, has already broken one oath...
Click to expand...


DO we have to get into this again....no he didnt...he pledged his life and honor to the Nights Watch to defend the realm. He sacrificed his honor for the Nights Watch by taking Ygritte for spear-wife. He sacrificed his honor to complete his oath to defend the realm. You want to split hairs, thats fine, but in my eyes that puts you in the same vein as Thorne and Slynt.

Or are we talking about when he ran all the way to Mole Town? Ridiculous.

Go back and read the oath again, it does prohibit taking a woman to wife. But it also lists his honor as belonging to the Nights Watch. Which would be the oathbreaking.....bedding Ygritte and completing a task in the best interest of the realms and men, or refusing and failing in his charge?
 
I feel like Jon's honor is one of the things that defines him as a character. i also feel that he has to leave the wall in order to fulfill his destiny as one of the heads of the dragon. i.e. some jerk is going to blow the horn of winter, bring down the wall, render the night's watch useless, leaving Jon to reform it into some new force that goes questing and stuff.
 
Jester, you've just said the driving force behind my thoughts on the future of the story and paraphrased the Backstreet Boys at the same time. Congratulations. And welcome to the Chronicles Network!
 
As Aegon pointed out, having sex is not against the rules! Only marriage and/or fathering children. As he did neither, Jon is pretty much in the clear.
 
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