hear me out.. a 4th dragon

[IlliferThePenniless]

Mel also thinks there's a dragon (or at least an egg) somewhere at The Wall. I think she might very well tear the whole damn thing damn thing to try and raise it. Have we had any indication that she knows about Dany... I don't think so, but I could very well be forgetting something.

I think maybe she knows or thinks that they'll need dragon's to face The Others and is desperate to produce one, completely unaware that there will be a few winging to Westeros any second now.

 

[Culhwch]

what is the specific wording of the azor ahai prophecy and waking dragons from stone? Seems any dragon under winterfell would certainly be esconced in stone at the very least.

I bring this up because i seem to recall the prophecy mentioning salt (ironborn/tears/etc) and smoke (...smoke) and the red comet...all of which were present (somewhat) at the sacking of winterfell. I don't have the books handy atm, but a cross reference could highlight more links between the two.

Look, Lofwyr, I know you're new and all, but if you keep making sense and proving theories with actual evidence we may have to boot you...

I reaaaaaally need to do a reread.

 

[Lofwyr]

Look, Lofwyr, I know you're new and all, but if you keep making sense and proving theories with actual evidence we may have to boot you...

I reaaaaaally need to do a reread.

My bad. I'll try to be more like Boaz from now on.

 

[Clansman]

My bad. I'll try to be more like Boaz from now on.

Well, Boaz. What are you going to do with THAT?!?

Cheeky bugger.

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

Well i have returned, actually I never left just havent posted anything in quite sometime but this interested me and I in the middle of the series doing the yearly re-read and there is more to this 4th dragon I think is someone can look near the end of ACOK the chapter right after dany visits the house of the un-dying Tyrions chapter when he is talking about the gold cloaks and winterfell falling to greyjoy to Bron
not exact words but close enough someone can do the work for me and look it up please dont have the book on hand it is at work

"there had been a great strenght within those stones... the news of the fall had come as a great shock....he remember there god's wood at the centre
a great heart tree standing like some pale giant frozen in time"

 

[Ursa major]

The paragraphs from which you quote, WnT, are on pages 519 and 520 of my paperback copy of ACoK.

There's nothing in those paragraphs that leaps out to say: "Hang on, there's a dragon hidden in there!"

Well, not to me. Or are you getting at something else?

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

no nothing ever leaps out in GRRM's writing what fun would it be if it did

everything i write are just my thoughts and with all the talk of a fourth dragon and just finishing that chapter at lunch today and summer's vision quoted early i thought i would share possibly more foreshadowing of a dragon buried under winterfell in stone

 

[Ursa major]

no nothing ever leaps out in GRRM's writing what fun would it be if it did

But we enjoy reading ten different (but not all necessarily exclusive) things into nearly everything GRRM writes in ASoIaF...






...or is it simply that we're beyond hope?

 

[Lofwyr]

ok...the pertinent quote: "It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

While there is a good amount of parallels and crossover to this 4th dragon...I have to conclude that this describes Dany so much better than anyone else it's pretty ridiculous.

For one thing, the prophecy indicates dragon(s), plural. For another it seems to imply Azor Ahai would be reborn, then proceed to wake some dragons from stone.

However, evidence in favor of 4th dragon:
The red star bleeding/gathering darkness both apply to Bran re-emerging from Winterfell's bowels. So does being reborn, and in an even more apt way than Dany since, at the time, Bran was dead to the world. His emergence from the Crypt is an even great symbolic rebirth than Dany being in that pyre. The smoke and salt are easily arguable for the Winterfell scenario as well.

So...in conclusion, it's possible that there was a 4th dragon under Winterfell that was awakened when Bran came out of the Crypts post the sacking of Winterfell. In this scenario Bran would be Azor Ahai (not an entirely terrible candidate for the role). But i think a great amount of the evidence works in favor of Dany and she is still the likely AA/dragon waker(er). This would also mean that whatever flying, firebreathing serpent Summer saw is likely some kind of foreshadowing/metaphore/etc.

 

[viZion]

I would be ok with Bran being Azor Ahai. I mean, there has to be a good reason GRRM forces us to slog through his extremely tedious and whiny chapters. That would be a good reason.

It feels good to get in my monthly dig at Bran. Seriously though, I think Lofwyr's theory has merit.

 

[JDP]

Yeah, though it's almost too obvious to be true, for me the evidence saying Dany is AA is pretty overwhelming:

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Red star bleeds: Red comet: check

Born again amongst smoke and salt: She was reborn in the flames of Drogo's funeral pyre (smoke from fire, salt from tears). Coincidently, Dany was also born the first time amidst smoke (war) and salt (a storm at sea).

Wake dragons out of stone: She woke her dragons out of their inert 'stone' eggs.

Now legend said that AA forged a fiery sword to defeat the Great Other or something. He had to temper it 3 times in order to get it hard enough to defeat the Others.

I suggest that Dany's 'swords' are in fact her Dragons (they're pretty fiery). I think they'll have to be 'tempered' and she'll end up with just one to defeat the Others (the final dragon having slain someone dear to her heart... I'd suggest Ser Jorah... or Jon (?!?)... as the final sword has to be 'plunged through the heart' of someone she loves).

My only problem with this theory is that it makes so much sense, I can't help but think GRRM has something else up his sleeve.

 

[TK-421]

Well, two things I never considered before has come out of this:

1) Bran being AA reborn. A distinct possibility but I think his chapter in AGOT where he is flying with the three-eyed crow has many clues in it and I'm not convinced he is. Dany is the best condidate but sometimes, that doesn't matter. If Mel convinces herself that Jon is AA reborn instead of Stannis, then that adds an exciting new dynamic.

2) Dany's dragons killing someone dear to her. I'm not convinced Jorah is so dear to her anymore. She is learning alot lessons the hard way and if she wants to be a ruler, she cannot forgive or feel anything for traitors. Jon would be a very interesting turn of events. Barristan is another one as he is her most trusted advisor. Let's not forget the role Tyrion, Quentyn and possibly Arya could play in Dany and dragon's future.

P.S. Welcome back whiskey

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

The problem with Bran as AA reborn for me is the whole tempering Light Bringer thing. It fits so neatly with Dany, three attempts to wake the dragons, finally using the death of her husband to do it correctly. I just don't see any similarly clear paralleled with Bran. Am I just missing it?

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Yes, I always thought the dragons were the final tempered sword, she having already attempted to wake them twice before the pyre.

Also, I think the smoke reference of Dany's birth is not war, but to the smoking volcanoes of Dragonstone.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Also, I think the smoke reference of Dany's birth is not war, but to the smoking volcanoes of Dragonstone.

I've always assumed the smoke was the smoke from the big damned bonfire she lights to wake the dragons/burn the Mirra Mazdur. The salt being her tears.

But Dragonstone works too I suppose.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I've always assumed the smoke was the smoke from the big damned bonfire she lights to wake the dragons/burn the Mirra Mazdur. The salt being her tears.

But Dragonstone works too I suppose.

Well it works both ways. It depends on whether you interpret the prophecy as being a reference to an actual birth, or to the signals that mark the "rebirth" as AA. She fits both.

I just personally never saw the pyre as the birth scene, since I always felt it to be the analogue to the tempering of Lightbringer. There's no reason it couldn't be both.

I suppose I just felt it was the tempering since one needed to be AA already to forge the sword/wake the dragons, yes? That's just semantics, but still.

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

in the house the un-dying when she finds the un-dying she sees a flash of visions of the future and one is a king with a dragon banner and blue eyes with a glowing red sword and all the small folk cheering him i would think that would be the true AA so it cant be dany and i dont think the small folk would cheer stanis nor would he fly a dragon banner

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I don't recall that vision, but I do remember she has a vision of the son she might have had when Mirri Maz Duur performs her ritual.

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

"I don't . . ." Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as
theirs. What was happening to her? "I don't understand," she said, more
loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? "Help me. Show me."
. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .
Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as
the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with
copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion,
a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a
dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath
murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . .
Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king
who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.
From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. .
. . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through
the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the
prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue
flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.





ok
a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king
who cast no shadow. (stannis?)

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.(after freeing the slaves does this happen? or is she seeing all westeros still)

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. .. . mother of dragons, slayer of lies (4th dragon is a lie it won't be any better in the realmin ADWD, the wall will fall Mel's great stone dragon has no real fire to slay the others.. death and peril leaving it for dany and her true dragons to save Westeros )

EDit: also notice it says great winged beast not dragon and Dany would know what a dragon looks like

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Yes, I thought so. I don't believe any of those images refers to AA. The red sword is merely glowing, like Aemon realized, not flaming.