The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

Which reference was that? over here it might have got lost on people not knowing what it was going on about.

but you are right, the personal lives of cast members shouldnt be referenced as it is not part of the world of the show.

One-off jokes making real-life reference to something about the cast is stock-in-trade in scripts. Admittedly, it's normally something about the actors' previous (i.e. most famous) roles roles and typically only about the core/leading cast, rather than guest stars [but would depend on the show]. For example, in the pilot of "Stargate SG-1", the cast mention "MacGuyvering" a computer together, reference to cast member Richard Dean Anderson (former star of "MacGuyver").

What's more interesting is by making the original (IMO fair-game) joke the comment half became canon. So the latest regeneration also referring to ginger is continuing a genuine observation from the character. And it's true (presumably): he's never been ginger. Or, so far as we know, female (if that's possible - ditto having fewer legs etc.).
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

One-off jokes making real-life reference to something about the cast is stock-in-trade in scripts. Admittedly, it's normally something about the actors' previous (i.e. most famous) roles roles and typically only about the core/leading cast, rather than guest stars [but would depend on the show]. For example, in the pilot of "Stargate SG-1", the cast mention "MacGuyvering" a computer together, reference to cast member Richard Dean Anderson (former star of "MacGuyver").
I'm not sure why it bothers me more than it seems to bother you**. Perhaps it has something to do with suspension of disbelief (already something hard to do when the Doctor is involved * awaits brickbats * ).

Take your McGyver example. The members of SG-1 - give or take Teal'c*** - could very well have seen MacGyver (and may even have noticed some similarity in appearance between O'Neill and the star of that show). In a way, it could be seen as bolstering SG-1's existence in the real world: the characters have a hinterland.

In-joke references to cast members' private lives do not. (Unless we think the Doctor thinks Rose looks like Billie Piper and in between saving the Earth (again) takes an interest at that celeb's love-life. So which does the Doctor buy, OK! or Hello? Heat?)




** - Not that I'm that bothered about it.

*** - And even Teal'c may have seen a bit of an episode; I expect the show's still available on some channel or other.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

A little late but I only watched the New Year episode this weekend.

I liked Tennants stint as the Doctor and will be sad to see him go. I also liked Eccleston's Doc but really wasn't such a big Doctor Who fan in the past. I think it may be my upbringing involving a lot of Star Trek where there were happy ending at the end of most episodes! I remember moving from the US to UK and seeing Tom Baker's Doctor Who and crapping myself (I was 7!). I couldn't believe a show could end with some impending doom about to strike; where was my happy ending? :eek:

I thought the last episode of Tennant was a little overdone. It felt more like it was the end of Doctor Who, rather than the end of this incarnation. It must have been daunting for the new guy.

I will be watching the series with my family (one of the few shows that seem to fit the family bill nicely). Although I hope it doesn't go too dark and scary, I mean, I was in my late 30's when the episode with the stone Angels who kept getting closer to their victims every time they 'blinked' aired (episode title I believe). Even I was standing up shouting at the screen for the characters to run!
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

I liked Tennants stint as the Doctor and will be sad to see him go. I also liked Eccleston's Doc but really wasn't such a big Doctor Who fan in the past. I think it may be my upbringing involving a lot of Star Trek where there were happy ending at the end of most episodes! I remember moving from the US to UK and seeing Tom Baker's Doctor Who and crapping myself (I was 7!). I couldn't believe a show could end with some impending doom about to strike; where was my happy ending? :eek:

Thats what I miss with the new Who, the story is all wrapped up in one week or two at the most. I for one miss the 6 week stories with the cliff hangers. Guess I'm old fashioned and know nothing about modern TV writing. Or maybe I have an attention span.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

Hehe, I agree Vladd. I think the Sontaran story had a nice screaming girl ending to part 1. I think 2 parters with hour long episodes could work well, and should be used more often.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

Something like the third Torchwood series might be nice - a story arc over five, hour-long episodes. Do a couple a year to fulfil the 13-episode contract, and not only are you laughing all the way to the bank, but the fans will be happy (well, most of use will be). I for one would love to see multi-episode story arcs, particularly if it means we get something twice a year, rather than once. The current 45-minute format isn't bad, but things always seem rushed.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

I feel that the Great British Public have made the BBC what it is today, PC-wise, by jumping on the slightest pretext to have a go at them for insulting any conceivable minority.
I'm not sure that is true. Only a small minority telephone and complain - that Mary Whitehouse society. This recent handwashing by the BBC is due to the Ross/Brand/Andrew Sax event. There was a news story broken over the last weekend about how every programme has to now be vetted for language and sex, even Teletubbies and Last Night of the Proms. They almost stopped Church Bell ringing being broadcast because no one had vetted it yet. They are just ticking boxes. Anyone could have seen that the Andrew Sax phone call was in poor taste had there been any kind of editorial input at all.

Now to resume normal service...
Something like the third Torchwood series might be nice - a story arc over five, hour-long episodes. Do a couple a year to fulfil the 13-episode contract, and not only are you laughing all the way to the bank, but the fans will be happy (well, most of use will be). I for one would love to see multi-episode story arcs, particularly if it means we get something twice a year, rather than once. The current 45-minute format isn't bad, but things always seem rushed.
I do like a serial format and don't know why it is considered old-fashioned (Flash Gordon, Mark of Zorro.) One point I would make though is that the serial format does tend to turn into a lot of running back and forward down corridors, and the need for a cliffhanger every 25 minutes can make the story a little odd. I consider 'Genesis of the Daleks' to be one of the best Doctor Who stories, but if you watch the episodes back-to-back you will see what I mean. How many more times are they going to run down that corridor or will Sarah Jane get captured?
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

Dave I watched the Genesis of the Daleks not to long back, I brought a copy of it. Whilst I agree the overall premise of the episodes is good, I was disappointed with Tom Bakers performance, its not how I remember him. Its been many years and I guess our memories fade but I thought he was funnier, more humerous, was it just me? I still liked Sarah Jane though and Davros was as evil and mnipulative as ever but even the Daleks seem to have lost their scareyness. Still I guess we have all grown up since then and things don't seem quite so fearsome as they once did.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

I'll answer for myself, rather than Dave on this one. I periodically rewatch a lot of "classic" Who, Baker included. He could indeed be quite humorous, but the out-and-out slapstick tended to occur in his fifth and sixth seasons (especially the latter), when he was hamming things up terribly, and giving the production team headaches as a result. The stories often suffered as a result, too. Earlier, while he could be very humorous at times, he played it "straight" -- the humor emerged from the character's own idiosyncracies, as it were; and he could turn and be incredibly intense, even somber, as well ("The Pyramids of Mars", "Horror of Fang Rock", "The Image of the Fendahl" for instance).

As for growing up: well.... I was already an adult when I encountered Doctor Who, so I really can't respond to that very well, as it tapped into the kid in me. Oh, I can easily note the flaws in the program (and a part of me does so), but a large part of me can nevertheless enjoy the adventure of the tale, including the menace (and even fearsomeness, at times) of the Daleks and the like, both on an overt and a symbolic level. (I still think both Daleks and Cybermen are, symbolically, among the most horrifying visions of a humanity -- using the term in its broader rather than strictly literal sense -- gone wrong that I've ever encountered.) So I still get that "tingle" from a lot of these things, both old Who and new....
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

Thanks JD, I do recall in previous conversation you mentioning that you like to watch a lot of the classic Doctor episodes. I have only a select few.
In reference to your comments, I actually think the current crop of Cybermen are far more terrifying than the current Daleks (even though they can levitate, elmiinates that stair problem they once had) I remember the Daleks of my youth as very scary.
I missed the first Doctor "William Hartnell but followed him through his adventures from Patrick Thougton onwards.
I agree that you don't need funny or humerous lines to make a character funny as such. I have said previously that I think its probably time David Tennants doctor came to an end as I don't think he has show the passion for the role in the last few specials (this is just my observation) and it could come down to the writer also. I actually am looking forward to seeing Matt Smith take on the role.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

Rather off-topic, but... I recently was given a copy of the DVD set, Doctor Who: The Beginning, which includes "An Unearthly Child"/"TheTribe of Gum", "The Daleks", and the two-episode "The Edge of Destruction", as well as a DVD of "The Aztecs" and a copy of the audio of "Marco Polo", which leaves me only with "The Keys of Marinus" and "The Sensorites" to have the complete first season of Who; so I am revisiting these in the remastered form.... Eventually, I hope to put together the complete set of Doctor Who as broadcast, but that is going to take considerable time. In the meantime, I periodically go back and watch things out of sequence as well as sometimes watching them in sequence to catch little bits of continuity and the like....

It wasn't so much funny lines, of which Baker's Doctor had a fair number all along (as did they all, really, even Hartnell's, who delighted in bad puns) but the fact that, toward the latter part of his run (except for the final season, where JNT apparently reined him in quite a bit), Baker tended to just take it OTT as much as he could possibly get by with, which had the result of tearing any tension in the story to shreds at times. When he was good, he could be fantastic; but when he was being an ass, I could have cheerfully shot Tom Baker.... Terrance Dicks made the comment that when he first joined the program he was "as good as gold", and thoroughly committed to the role, but by the time of the fifth and sixth season, he was a real "pain in the neck" and very difficult to work with. I think he had simply become bored, and was being childish... something Baker himself, in later years, more than hinted at at times. And I think that detracted considerably from the quality of the storytelling in those episodes. The humor which emerged from the character, on the other hand, could be anything from quite broad to very subtle, it could emphasize his alienness or make him more vulnerable by showing his fallibilities, and that aided in the storytelling and the growth of the character; at those times, Baker was often at his very best, and Baker's Doctor at his best is very good indeed....

On topic: Related to the above... I do think both Tennant and the writers sometimes fall prey to the sort of thing I describe above, and it detracts from the program now as it did then. Overall, I very much like his Doctor, and there have been some very good things along the way, but I do think it is time for a change, yes.

As for the final two episodes -- I agree with some of the criticisms here, and disagree with others. While I am quite aware that people have survived (sometimes with relatively minor injuries, in fact), extremely high falls, this is generally when they land on turf or in greenery, which may soften or break up the velocity of their fall in smaller increments. The problem here is that we were not given anything of that sort; he crashes through glass and metal, and lands on an extremely hard surface, without any indication of any kind of psychic energy being exerted to soften his impact whatsoever. While he might survive, and might, through some freak, not even be injured in any obvious way, the internal injuries should have been enough to incapacitate him, at least. He shouldn't have been able to rise, let alone stand.... A definite violation of suspension of disbelief.

John Simms as The Master... I have a rather different take there. On the whole, I have found his characterization interesting, though the final portion of the first part I simply found irritating, annoying, and just badly done. A good concept, but lousy follow-through. The majority of the other faults I chalk up, I'm afraid, to writing more than Simms' performance; and at times I thought he brought some very nice layering to the character, especially in the quieter moments. And what the blazes is up with the force beams and the like? Where did that come from? It makes me think very much of something that was addressed in one of the special features on the DVD of "The Silurians", where the more rigorous idea of scientific plausibility and any sort of logic based in reality has been replaced by a reliance on flashy "magic" or "psychic" activities, for which we really haven't been given any sort of grounding of the sort necessary for acceptance of the particular instances witnessed. There has been too much "flash" and not enough preparation... partly the result of the format, which does tend to rush things (I, too, would prefer a somewhat more leisurely -- and therefore often more careful -- storytelling; but that is out of favor with current audiences, who are used to being carried along with explosions, loud noises, dialogue delivered in a manner that doesn't so much chew the scenery as devour scenery, stage, and orchestra pit all at one go, and such rapid pacing that one (supposedly) has no time to note the gaping holes in the scripts, rather than a more measured, nuanced, and layered, thought-provoking sort of storytelling or acting experience.)

Ultimately, I did enjoy these final episodes, but I think they could have been one heck of a lot stronger... and I think RTD himself could well have done a very good job had he set his mind to it. As it is, there are a lot of things I very much liked, and a lot of things which annoyed the dickens out of me; and I sincerely hope a little more care will be taken in future for such aspects, as one can have both a fast-paced story and one whose logic is also well-knit and consistent with what has gone before (not to mention internally).
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

I didn't like it.

I was kind of excited about the first of the two (the one on at Christmas), especially when I saw that the timelords were coming back

but the second part was very disappointing, mainly because of that godawful, self-indulgent, long drawn-out ending. How come the regeneration process takes so long all of a sudden - oh yes, so that RTD can do a self-congratulatory, long, drawn-out, weepy ending.

It erks me that RTD makes endings that don't make any sense and were clearly just invented because they are convenient to him as a writer. That's bad writing really. The Tennant's doctor is virtually the Messiah thing has started to really get on my nerves also.

Looking forward with a lot of excitement to the next doctor and Moffat's reign as head writer. It's definitely time for some new blood.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

Welcome to the forum, elfdragonlord.

Your sentiments are similar to mine. Feel slightly sorry for Tennant, clearly very well-suited to the role but hampered by a berk of a head writer.

I also reiterate my surprisingly popular call for whoever plays the Master next to have an evil beard. And not be hyperactive. Or imbued with random and slightly silly superpowers.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

I also reiterate my surprisingly popular call for whoever plays the Master next to have an evil beard. And not be hyperactive. Or imbued with random and slightly silly superpowers.

I agree, Thaddeus - in fact, (except for the beard), rather like Rassilon as played by Timothy Dalton.
 
re: The End of Time (pts 1&2): Final DT episodes

Aye, I thought Dalton was quite entertaining. Certainly better than Simm's Master.

The use of the name Rassilon was odd, given the character's history. I wonder if they'll bring back Omega, or Susan.

Also, they should stop dicking about and just unlock the Time War. They won't stop having daleks, or the odd Time Lord. Half-hearted and predictable teases are getting dull.
 
Welcome to the forum, elfdragonlord.

Your sentiments are similar to mine. Feel slightly sorry for Tennant, clearly very well-suited to the role but hampered by a berk of a head writer.

I also reiterate my surprisingly popular call for whoever plays the Master next to have an evil beard. And not be hyperactive. Or imbued with random and slightly silly superpowers.

That's where we differ. I like Simm as the Master.

As for Tennant, I really like his portrayal of the Doctor for the most part. Series 2 and 3 were wonderful. But it went downhill after series 3 and it's RTD's fault.

Moffat's episodes have been really excellent though, in all four series, which is why I'm looking forward to the new series so much.
 

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