Some of your favorite stories in the Writing Challenge -- NOT for voting.

[chrispenycate]

As long as they're not over the weekend. No, scrub that; it would give me an excuse for not voting (even though my previous choice would probably be one of the finalists, so I wouldn't have to agonise over my hand-scrawled list of points again)

Strange that more people should write than vote. I did consider PMing a couple of the regulars who did not indulge in this exercise, but it would look too much like "vote for me", which it wouldn't be. After all, how long can it take someone here to read seventy-five words? All right, three thousand words, and reread, and not want to offend, and rereread the short list… perhaps so.

But it seems a shame, so many deserving stories without a single vote. (And I'm not just gloating that my thoroughly undeserving entry got one. Much.)

I suppose the gamers are never going to weigh in, and we seem to have obtained most of the regulars from the lounge – perhaps playrooms people, and some more of the books and literature? Or perhaps I'll add a link in my infamous introductions threads; 'Have you tried the famous echo in the British Museum reading room? Visit the workshop for another unforgettable experience.'

And the idea of letting the fall of a coin (or a die, or, by the way things are looking, the spin of a roulette wheel) to decide what aching, concentrated elimination has failed in just doesn't feel right.

 

[Culhwch]

If there is another tie-breaker vote, which begins to look increasingly likely, I will be arguing forcefully in favor of a much shorter period for it to run.

Well, I certainly won't argue against that - I was for a shorter tiebreak from the start, if I recall (I know the original proposition was six days!). Actually, I was for no tie break, and just have two (or three) themes members could pick to address. I still think that's a good idea, but I'm happy to go with the consensus.

Chris, I do hope you're not stereotyping up there. 'Gamers are never going to weigh in'? Lenny and I are both here competing and voting, and I should think a few of the other participants are gamers as well! Gaming is not a dirty word! (You'd know, because it'd show up like this if it was: ******)

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

No, gaming is NOT a dirty word, Chris. I am a gamer myself, and I have cast my vote.


And as for decisions in case of a tiebreaker vote.....you're right about leaving it to chance, I guess. It could come down to a game of chocolates and guessing their filling if it is to be left to chance.

 

[Lenny]

Speak for yourselves - I haven't touched a game in months; I needed something to do to stop the shaking.

But seriously, you should see the dirty looks I get when I tell people I'm going to spend the day gaming. It's as if I told them I was going to make some slippers from kittens! I tell you, Arts students just don't understand Scientists...

I suppose we could ask Brian to implement something that forces people to vote when they log in? Alternatively, two days for the tie-break poll sounds just as good. We could go all fancy and implement a form of the STV system in the future.

 

[chopper]

if Championship Manager counts, i'm a gamer.....

 

[Boneman]

And I'm certain we could avoid all the tie-breakers if we just had 3 votes each.... what happens if it's a three way tie and then the tie-breaker becomes a three way tie?

 

[Culhwch]

I don't know that that makes it less likely to have a three-way tie, or more likely to have a four- or five- or six-way tie. I'm not a mathematician, though, so if you want to run off the figures I'll be happy to review them.

 

[Lenny]

Three votes simply given out would probably end up with ties still, yes. Three votes in a Single Transferable Vote type system (it's probably worth getting rid of the quota for something like this), which I imagine Boneman is getting at, gives you the chance to vote for your favourite three. In this case, if there's a tie, the votes of the none-tied stories are redistributed (say someone voted for a non-tied story as their first choice, and a tied story as their second). If there's still no winner, the third-choice votes are redistributed.

If there's still not a winner after that, then we'll have succeeded in breaking the system.

 

[The Judge]

I'm happy with 2 days for the tie-breaker, also, though I'm with Chris -- tossing a coin if the tie-breaker is tied seems wrong, somehow (though that's exactly what HareBrain did last month and his was the casting vote!). What about asking someone of good reputation and standing** to act as a guest of honour to pick the winner? I think I suggested this last time, but I can't remember anyone commenting on it -- not sure if that's a good or a bad sign.

** presumably, we do have people of good reputation and standing here...?

 

[Culhwch]

** presumably, we do have people of good reputation and standing here...?

No. No, I'm afraid not.

 

[J Riff]

well it's all good fun either way. I ran into some people writing what are called 'Drabbles' , which are 100-word stories.. then there's 'droubles' (200) and 'dribbles' ( 50 wds. ) ...so what we have here , is ... perhaps ....
'tribbles' >???

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, I certainly won't argue against that - I was for a shorter tiebreak from the start, if I recall (I know the original proposition was six days!). Actually, I was for no tie break, and just have two (or three) themes members could pick to address. I still think that's a good idea, but I'm happy to go with the consensus.

I don't even remember talking about how long a tiebreaker poll would run last month. Which is not to say we didn't, but I don't remember it, and I think if we did I would have said, "Let's make it short," because there is no way I wanted it to go up to the last minute before the next Challenge began.

But maybe we were all talking at cross purposes about different things and thought it was the same thing.

We could make the initial voting period shorter. It might end two days earlier, for instance, and if there was a tie we could have a tiebreaker poll -- and if there wasn't, the winner would have two days longer to think up a theme. Either way, they could announce the theme any time between the first and fifth and we would start writing our stories.

As for having multiple themes, I don't care for that idea. People are having enough trouble deciding between stories that they like but for different reasons, and I think if if the stories didn't even have the same theme in common then figuring out which one to vote for would be even harder. Plus, if we ended up with three or four different themes, it seems to me that's almost like having no theme at all.

If we find ourselves dealing with ties too often, then I believe we should rethink the voting system. I wish now that I had been more specific about how many votes people would get when I set the Challenge up in the first place*, because I still think that more votes would make it easier for a clear favorite to emerge. Maybe the mathematics say otherwise, but what of the human element? And anyway to predict the outcome using statistics it seems to me there would have to be many more of us. (Which may make no sense at all, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.) I'd rather get the voting over in a reasonable period of time and get on to the next round of stories, because that's where I think the focus should be.

*But then, I never thought we would end up with 42 stories in a month or fewer people casting votes than we had stories.

Three votes in a Single Transferable Vote type system (it's probably worth getting rid of the quota for something like this), which I imagine Boneman is getting at, gives you the chance to vote for your favourite three. In this case, if there's a tie, the votes of the none-tied stories are redistributed (say someone voted for a non-tied story as their first choice, and a tied story as their second). If there's still no winner, the third-choice votes are redistributed.

I have heard about such voting systems before, and it sounds like too much work under the circumstances. (Especially if some month we ended up with ten entries.) If we were handing out prize money, or a fancy trophy, or if the Challenge came around once a year, then of course, yes, it would be worth the effort, but every month? Maybe if we took each month's winners (including the people who tied) and had a best of the year contest, it would be worth it.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I'm all for a shorter tiebreaker voting period, too. It was agonizing last month, having to wait so long with only two stories to vote on.

I would be in favor of each person's having two or three votes. Given that we have fewer votes than stories, or likely not many more at the rate we're going, it wouldn't get cumbersome and would allow more deserving entries to be recognized. And it might keep most of us from tearing out so much hair in the decision process.

Maybe if we have a tie, we could have a double theme. Not two themes to choose from, as I agree that would become difficult, but have both winners choose a theme and then we have to write a story that combines the two. It could make life interesting. Ok, this month's theme is Flying Cucumbers. Or Time travel and Hippopotami? Hmm....

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Or lycanthropy and cyberdimensions? A combined theme would be just a bit too difficult to pull off, I believe.

 

[Culhwch]

I don't even remember talking about how long a tiebreaker poll would run last month. Which is not to say we didn't, but I don't remember it, and I think if we did I would have said, "Let's make it short," because there is no way I wanted it to go up to the last minute before the next Challenge began.

But maybe we were all talking at cross purposes about different things and thought it was the same thing.

Very likely!

We could make the initial voting period shorter. It might end two days earlier, for instance, and if there was a tie we could have a tiebreaker poll -- and if there wasn't, the winner would have two days longer to think up a theme. Either way, they could announce the theme any time between the first and fifth and we would start writing our stories.

Makes a lot of sense. I vote for this system.

As for having multiple themes, I don't care for that idea. People are having enough trouble deciding between stories that they like but for different reasons, and I think if if the stories didn't even have the same theme in common then figuring out which one to vote for would be even harder. Plus, if we ended up with three or four different themes, it seems to me that's almost like having no theme at all.

Also makes a lot of sense - I certainly hadn't considered it from that angle. Suggestion retracted.

If we find ourselves dealing with ties too often, then I believe we should rethink the voting system. I wish now that I had been more specific about how many votes people would get when I set the Challenge up in the first place*, because I still think that more votes would make it easier for a clear favorite to emerge. Maybe the mathematics say otherwise, but what of the human element? And anyway to predict the outcome using statistics it seems to me there would have to be many more of us. (Which may make no sense at all, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.) I'd rather get the voting over in a reasonable period of time and get on to the next round of stories, because that's where I think the focus should be.

I think the fact that a lot of people's lists are remarkably similar, with the same three of four stories appearing again and again, suggests that ties would be just as frequent. I think the quick-fire tiebreaker is a better option at the moment. If it turns out to fail (and the first tie-breaker worked well) we can review that.

*But then, I never thought we would end up with 42 stories in a month or fewer people casting votes than we had stories.

I'm just glad we didn't let people enter multiple stories!

I have heard about such voting systems before, and it sounds like too much work under the circumstances.

Seems to me Boneman is volunteering to do the legwork...

 

[Culhwch]

Have been thinking, and how about this: I could shorten the voting for this month's challenge by a day, and close it on midnight on the night of the 30th. (The way I see it, and judging by last month, we're probably close to as many votes as are going to come in.) Then, if we're still in a tie, we can run a two-day tiebreaker. Start the new month's comp on or around the 2nd.

Thoughts?

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Hmm.....heck, why not, Cul? I doubt an extra day would make much difference anyway.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I'd be for it if no one had a serious problem with it. Some of the people who are putting off their decisions would probably find it no easier on Monday than on Sunday ... and might even be glad to be put out of their misery a day earlier.

But -- I can see how there might be some ill-feeling if the rules are changed on such short notice and with no better reason than because we would save a day that way. Yes, some people would be glad, because they are impatient to get on with the next Challenge, but they can wait another 24 hours. And in fact, we don't know how long it might take the eventual winner to come up with a theme. Even with the extra day, they might put it off until the last minute.

Let's just agree that the tiebreaker (if needed) will only last two days, and if we have a tie at the end of that, the winners will have to get together and decide on a theme they can agree on. They'll have the two days of the tie-breaker poll to start thinking of their own themes (if they haven't already), and to consult with each other on possible themes if they have to collaborate, and perhaps a final decision will be made early enough to satisfy everyone.

In fact, I hope that our frontrunners are already giving thought to the themes they would choose if they won.

And starting in June we end the voting earlier.

 

[Culhwch]

Fair enough. Sounds sensible. But, yes, I think definitely next month we have a shorter initial vote.

 

[crystal haven]

I think ending the voting earlier in the future is a good idea. It is such a shame though, that more people haven't voted.

Thank you, Chel for voting for my story. I'm pleased you enjoyed it. The story seems to be trying to make itself into a longer story now. So the challenge has really hepled me to get writing again and not staring at a blank page on my computer.

And thank you to everyone involved in setting up the challenge and the running of the forum.