Discussing the Writing Challenges -- November and December 2010

[Erin99]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

HB, that's lovely! Tolkien always had a way with words, and he puts my point across beautifully. I'd not read that quote before, or that essay. I might have to look it up, now.

I like the "first embodiment" bit, too. When I hear of valleys and hills, I immediately think of the Yorkshire Dales and the Wolds and the North York Moors, which were my first experience of such beauty, growing up in Yorkshire.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

And yet Tolkien wrote some very lengthy descriptions, full of vivid detail. I live where there are no such hills and valleys as Tolkien writes about. It begins to look as though I shall never see them with my own eyes. But with his words he takes me there, and I can see them in my mind.

Some things are so familiar you don't have to describe them. Mentioning them is enough. But the further you take readers into unfamiliar territory -- and some fantasy and science fiction worlds are full of unfamiliar territory -- the more you need to describe. And then there are writers who just go nuts with the description, like Eddison and Peake and Mirrlees, and their writing isn't to everyone's taste, but those who love their work grow intoxicated on the language.

Personally, as a reader I don't grow more invested in something the more I have to imagine for myself. Stories that take place against a blank grey backdrop that I have to fill in for myself fail to engage me -- unless, of course, the story is about characters stumbling through a grey void. I do love writers who provide just the right concrete details that suggest a hundred other ideas. But there are also writers that I love who will pile detail on detail making their worlds so complete (and beyond anything I could have imagined) that I feel I know them more intimately than some of the places I visit everyday. And there are writers I love who can do it both ways, as the scene demands.

I think it's important to be able to do both, whichever style we adopt.

 

[Erin99]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

And yet Tolkien wrote some very lengthy descriptions, full of vivid detail. I live where there are no such hills and valleys as Tolkien writes about. It begins to look as though I shall never see them with my own eyes. But with his words he takes me there, and I can see them in my mind.

Oh, that's bittersweet, Teresa! It makes me sad.

Never give upon your dreams. One day you will see them, if it's important to you. You don't know what the future brings.

I'd never been abroad, then last year, after circumstances fell right, I got to go to France for little cost. And as of this Thursday, I'm going again.

 

[chrispenycate]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Some years ago I wrote a letter to Marion Zimmer Bradley, explaining some technical details of her universe to her (I've never lacked cheek) and suggesting that Darkover was obviously geologically active, which was surprising for a planet that was so old. I mentioned that the mountains and crevasses she described were still young, barely millions of years in place, skipping and jumping with the exuberance of youth. I couldn't have got this picture if the only mountains I had seen had been the Cairngorms, or some other old, settled range; but I couldn't either if she hadn't put a lot of details in, so we were both seeing the same slopes. From the letter she sent back – very complimentary about my theories – it was clear that we had a very similar picture of the terrain.

And she suggested I start writing…

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Never give upon your dreams. One day you will see them, if it's important to you.

That's easier to believe when you are young, Leisha. I was sure of it, then.

But, rather than bore you with the tedious details, which don't belong in this thread anyway, I will just say that the circumstances of my life are such that those dreams seem further away than ever. So I am grateful to those authors who allow me to visit the places I will never see (as well, of course, as those places none of us would see if not for the brilliant conceptions of an author's imaginations) and I would hate to think that a whole generation of authors was being bred who fear to write more than minimal descriptions.

I think more time is spent on discussing how much description is enough than is spent on discussing how to write them. Short or long, there are some things that good descriptions have in common, but writers seem less interested in discussing that.

However ... back to the Writing Challenge.

Good stories so far, and whatever people think they've learned by writing them, I certainly enjoy reading them.

 

[Sephiroth]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

I said the same thing to Seph, about how you shouldn't describe the least possible in a scene. Glad to see someone else (Teresa) agrees.

But this makes it sound like I disagreed, which I very much didn't. All I said was that it depends on whether or not the details are important.

 

[Erin99]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Oops! Sorry. Yes, I meant that I'd just made the passing comment to Seph, not that he disagreed.

And I call myself I writer?



I'm still loving one story in particular in the challenge, though a couple of others are worthy of consideration too, and may be rated higher on subsequent re-reads.

Can't wait to see the flurry of last-minute entries once I get back from France!

 

[mosaix]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Now there is a rule that can be taken way too far.

Of course this is entirely true, Teresa and what I failed to mention is that the critters website is concerned only with short stories.

Sorry if I inadvertently over-generalised.

 

[Sephiroth]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Are you sure, Mosaix? A friend of mine has used Critters to get feedback on her novel -- although I'm sure the system of critiquing for novels is different to that of short stories, there. Perhaps it's left to the members involved to sort it out between themselves....

 

[The Judge]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

I think more time is spent on discussing how much description is enough than is spent on discussing how to write them. Short or long, there are some things that good descriptions have in common, but writers seem less interested in discussing that.

I'd be very interested in such a discussion, if not here then in a separate thread. When I bumped the place and person description workshop threads I was hoping to see a few more people join in, so I could rip off their ideas... ahem... er... pick up a few pointers... So a few suggestions on how to write good description would be very welcome.

Meantime, yes, the standard here is getting better and better each time. Which is profoundly depressing for those of us who have no laurels to rest upon...

 

[mosaix]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Are you sure, Mosaix? A friend of mine has used Critters to get feedback on her novel -- although I'm sure the system of critiquing for novels is different to that of short stories, there. Perhaps it's left to the members involved to sort it out between themselves....

You're quite right Seph, you can put up a chapter each week / month and ask for dedicated readers to crit a piece of work over and extended period (months and years). I never do and had forgotten completely about that.

 

[Sephiroth]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Ah, so I hadn't misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying.

Said friend has been trying to get me to join, although due to my circumstances recently, I haven't had much writing in need of critique, and I haven't had much energy or focus to provide crits for others. And I'm already a member of another site, as well as my private crit group.

 

[Erin99]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

I'd be very interested in such a discussion, if not here then in a separate thread. ... So a few suggestions on how to write good description would be very welcome.

Start the thread, Judge, and we'll all contribute, I'm sure. I would be interested in such a thread, too. I'm positive frequent comments will be "keep the description relevant to the character's POV" and "keep the description relevant" and "use description that heightens the tale and engages the reader".

We'll see, I suppose. But that's how I mostly work. I find details that my character notices and highlight them - if they add something to the story. As far as I'm aware, I don't write description for description's sake. But all good stories need a setting, and I believe setting is just as important as characterisation and plot. After all, the wrong setting can make or break your scene and/or book!

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

I would really like to see more people from around the site voting. I'm not sure how we make that happen

Maybe start by shaming them into voting and constantly reminding them like this?

We want you to vote for the writing challenge!

 

[Ursa major]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Such a specific image may not work with everyone who posts here.


(And what if potential voters start to worry about hanging chads...?)

 

[No One]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Ooo, this is interesting... Hey guys, great read as usual.

And pertinent timing too (looks like that poster worked, and I'm a Brit!). I'll happily add my vote, providing a) I find the time to read all the entries closely and b) I figure out how to vote (no need to tell me, I'll have a good long look over this whole section. If I'm that stupid I'll cry for help later ).

 

[Michael01]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Um .... [sheepishly bows head] ... where do I vote again?

 

[No One]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

Um .... [sheepishly bows head] ... where do I vote again?

Ba-dum-dum-tssst!

 

[Michael01]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

I deserved that!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

re: Discussing the Writing Challenges -- July & August

In the thread with the stories, Michael. When I close the thread at 11:59 pm GMT, on the 23rd of the month, Culhwch is putting the finishing touches on the poll, and appears shortly after midnight with the link, in the final post* in that thread. He also posts a link in the discussion thread, but the one at the end of the thread for that month's stories is the easiest to find.

The link says Vote in big red letters, but I believe he will be changing the wording a bit to make it clear that that is indeed the link to the poll.



*Well, it's the final post until the poll is closed and the winner is announced.