I no longer feel obligated to purchase ADWD. Is that wrong?

[Gry Wnd]

I will still read it one way or another but I’m not going to buy it.

Please here me out…

To preface my argument I’d like to let you know a little of where I’m coming from.
First, I am not upset with GRRM at all. Secondly I feel as though he has the right to live his life anyway he wants to. Thirdly, I think those who go crazy and say hateful things about how long this is taking (such as worrying out loud if he’s going to live long enough to finish the series) are complete idiots.

That said, here we go…

At what point (in years) should we feel, that GRRM should feel, increased urgency and an obligation to get this done for his fan base? We all have our tipping point, for me that point is five years. To clarify I’m not upset it’s taking this long. These books are fantastic and I don’t want a lesser product. However, (after 5 years) I’ve reached the point in which I can’t read one more “Not a blog” update about him flying all over the world, without feeling like he is still totally indifferent about when he finishes ADWD. I really think that he should feel, or show he feels, more obligated to get this done. I know he canceled one trip but that was because of other obligations not just ADWD.

At what point are we as a fan base being unreasonable to expect him to start clearing his calendar and hunkering down on this project? Or at least act like it.
For me, knowing that it will be over five years, I’ve reached that point and if I’m being unreasonable let me know. Those updates about “Kong” and how this is the longest he’s ever blown a deadline aren’t enough because actions speak are louder than words. And right now he’s in Dublin…

Again, not upset with him, he can live his life, work on other projects, and take his time. I’m just saying that after five years; if he doesn’t feel obligated to turn up the urgency to get the book done for his fans, then I don’t feel obligated to support him when he does get around to it.

 

[Ursa major]

To answer your question: Of course it's not wrong, particularly as you don't appear to be a "complete idiot" by your own definition.

Having said that, it's probably best if you stay away from NotaBlog. I'm sure the news of the eventual completion (of volume five of seven) will filter through to you some way or another.

 

[Snowdog]

I stopped waiting for the book ages ago. I did enjoy the earlier ones but I've forgotten much of what went before and any desperation to get the next book has long-since vanished.

Anyway, it's clear that GRRM is having serious problems with the plot or the structure of ADWD, which would indicate that at present at least he doesn't have a clear vision of where the story should be going.

It would be a pity if the series didn't get finished but if he's struggling this much he might be better off moving on. He has no obligation to finish it (except contractual ones maybe).

 

[Eulalia]

Of course, purchase it, read it or not, as you like.

I think it would be very hard to put yourself in the shoes of someone who writes books of this length and quality(can not really grasp the work involved in a project of this size)--and satisfies legions of fans by attending events, which is also part of the job. GRRM is also helping to put out a mini series, which I'm pretty sure that I will enjoy. I'm very glad that he doesn't just wrap it all up in a pat ending. I imagine that would be much easier to do.

It does seem like ADWD is coming out in the spring. His books were a pleasure to re read and I usually don't bother. I don't feel like I have it all down by any means--there is so much to it. I've read most of it three times and I still kind of suck at the trivia, and even keeping track of all the characters. People still bring up details and issues that I have missed.


I don't want to be spoiled, so I have an order with amazon.uk and should get ADWD faster. I'm looking forward to it! It's frustrating to wait--however, why punish myself by not getting the book as soon as it's out? Can't think of anything out there currently that is better, even if the series is tantalizingly unfinished. I have gotten way more than my money's worth already.

 

[The Imp]

You're certainly entitled to feel whatever you like, but I have to point out that for someone who isn't upset with GRRM you sound pretty upset. I'm not being critical, in fact, i understand your frustration, and think you make some valid points. I personally think that when an author writes a series they do, in fact, enter into a contract with the reader that they will finish it. I firmly beleive that gRRM is trying to deliver on that implied promise. I also believe that his biggest asset and also biggest problem is being a perfectionist. Listen to what he said in the latest podcast that he has linked. I think it gives a lot of insight into the problems he's been facing and why he's been facing them.

I personally can't wait to read ADWD. I'll be camped out at the foot of my driveway waiting for the UPS guy to deliver my copy. I firmly believe that it will be here this spring, and after that, who knows. The bottom line is, these books are just too damn good. I can forgive anything, espically since i like who GRRM is as a person. His politics are good, as well as his choiuce of football teams.

 

[Gry Wnd]

I don't want to be spoiled, so I have an order with amazon.uk and should get ADWD faster. I'm looking forward to it! It's frustrating to wait--however, why punish myself by not getting the book as soon as it's out? Can't think of anything out there currently that is better, even if the series is tantalizingly unfinished. I have gotten way more than my money's worth already.[/QUOTE]


You are right, I may end up not being able to wait. Against my better judgment I'm starting to really loose patience when I read about all that is on his plate. I waited 5 years before it started to happen but I can't help it anymore. Three re-reads and one audio books listen, and I'm starting to perceive indifference from him when reading his blog. Justly? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm going crazy.

I could be totally wrong and maybe the way he deals with stress is to watch football, sell old calenders, and take really long airplane flights. Either way after five years I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to want a real show of urgency.

 

[Gry Wnd]

You're certainly entitled to feel whatever you like, but I have to point out that for someone who isn't upset with GRRM you sound pretty upset. I'm not being critical, in fact, i understand your frustration, and think you make some valid points. I personally think that when an author writes a series they do, in fact, enter into a contract with the reader that they will finish it. I firmly beleive that gRRM is trying to deliver on that implied promise. I also believe that his biggest asset and also biggest problem is being a perfectionist. Listen to what he said in the latest podcast that he has linked. I think it gives a lot of insight into the problems he's been facing and why he's been facing them.

I personally can't wait to read ADWD. I'll be camped out at the foot of my driveway waiting for the UPS guy to deliver my copy. I firmly believe that it will be here this spring, and after that, who knows. The bottom line is, these books are just too damn good. I can forgive anything, espically since i like who GRRM is as a person. His politics are good, as well as his choiuce of football teams.

You are GRRM.. come on, admit it - no one likes the Giants and the Jets

 

[The Imp]

You are GRRM.. come on, admit it - no one likes the Giants and the Jets

Except for every one of the thousands upon thousands of football fans in the great NY metro area I'll also point out that I get people saying Go Giants (whenever I'm wearing my Giants sweatshirt) in places like Colorado, Chicago, and California

And yes, of course, i am GRRM

 

[Wybren]

I guess I am lucky in that I only discovered ASOIF last year, so the wait for me between the books does not seem so drawn out.

However if you think 5 years is a long time try 12 years, which is how long those of us who enjoyed reading Jean M Auel's earth children series had to wait between books 4 and 5 and not only did we wait for 12 years, at the end of the 12 years we got a very ordinary book. The 6th book is due out next year which is 9 years between the 5th and 6th.

 

[The Procrastinator]

I personally think that when an author writes a series they do, in fact, enter into a contract with the reader that they will finish it. I firmly beleive that gRRM is trying to deliver on that implied promise.

I personally think that an author has an intention to finish when he starts a series, but this is not a contract in any real sense. The reader is not obligated to buy, the author is not obligated to write (except if they have signed a legal contract, but I don't think that's what you mean, Imp.) Reader beware. Authors are only human.

 

[Icemark]

I personally think that an author has an intention to finish when he starts a series,

...

I agree with you. I think it must be very difficult to make any sort of decent progress when you are struggling with certain things. It might not matter who or how many are waiting for you....(especially, when I think about the things in my own life that I keep putting off and moving out).

Personally, I've found that staying away from forums and Not a Blog - tends to help me "forget" about the long delay and in between I've also been reading other books to try and fill up the time. It helps to keep frustration levels down for the most part

However, the sense of anticipation that has built up since the last book is absolutely AWESOME!

 

[Mesanna]

...

However, the sense of anticipation that has built up since the last book is absolutely AWESOME!

I'm just a newbie to the story, so if the book comes out next Spring, I'll only have waited little over a year, which is no time at all in the publishing world. I understand the frustrations and discontent, though some people take it too far.

I can't wait for next Spring. These forums will be buzzing by then. (Though maybe I shouldn't get my hopes too high, gulp!)

 

[hadd]

The picture of him hawking did it for you, eh.

That *******.

 

[Allanon]

I also feel the pain of waiting for these books but came late to this series so am not enraged as yet but take into account the other two series i had to wait for and you'll understand my patience:

The Dark Tower, 1982-2004. Longest wait was 6 years between 3 and 4, then again with 4 and 5

Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Between the third of the second chronicles and the first of the last there was a 21 year wait!!

 

[Clansman]

I understand the frustration, but that is easily dealt with:

READ OTHER BOOKS! GRRM is not the only game in town, and in fact, it is arguable that he is the best, as that is always a matter of personal opinion. If you need and require big, fat, complex epic fantasy, there are lots to choose from while waiting, such as:

1. Steven Erikson's and Ian Esselmont's Malazan books. These suckers are huge, mind-numbingly complex, but with a lot more magic and with different races, etc. Very dark and dystopic like Martin, perhaps not quite as well-written, but that is a matter of personal taste. Amazing world building.

2. Brandon Sanderson. His newest, The Way of Kings, has hit the ground running, and it will be a ten-book series of huge books. Plus, the guy is the polar opposite to GRRM in terms of focusing on a project and finishing it. He not only writes his own massive books, he is finishing Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time (and fixing a lot of Jordan's mid-series problems while doing so). You can read his Elantris or Mistborn books, and then be ready to receive the next book after The Way of Kings late next year or in 2012. You can also get the last volume of the Wheel of Time, A Memory of Light, next November. The penultimate volume, The Towers of Midnight, is being released in the next week or two. The guy is a writing machine, having a number of projects on the go, and finishing them in a manner that is awe-inspiring, no matter what field you are in.

3. Janny Wurts. Her Wars of Light and Shadow is as big and complex as Martin and Erikson, but much more tightly focussed and character-driven. This will be an eleven-book series when it is done, and the ninth book is in the final stages of editing right now. Plus, the eight that are out are big and fat, and will keep you busy until ADWD comes out. She is not as nihilistic as Martin, injecting a bit more hope to make the story more balanced, but neither does she pull punches. Very adult themes, and amazing characterization. Not one word of this huge series is wasted, as little seemingly useless bits come back later in the book, or even books later, to be tied in. Personally, I like her series better than A Song of Ice and Fire. Plus, she has a number of other books, including the Cycle of Fire trilogy that is just being released on audio books, and The Empire series that Raymond Feist plotted but she wrote (Feist's best, imo).

4. There is Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time that is big and complex, but it lost its way for several books. Sanderson rescued the series for me, but I would love to go back in time and tell Robert Jordan in 1990 a few things. It could have been a fantasy classic, had the editors reigned the series in. It is likely that Jordan's long illness had a major impact on his writing, as this now 14 book series wandered badly from books 7 to 10. The series should have been completed in 10 books, but, nevertheless, it is a good series, if not excellent like Martin, Wurts, Sanderson or Erikson, and it did a lot to bring fantasy to a wider audience of people.

4. A new favourite of mine is Paul Kearney. His Monarchies of God series is brilliant fantasy that is badly under-read. He also has his historical fantasy series based on ancient Greece, with The Ten Thousand and Corvus, the latter of which will be released next week (I reviewed it after Werthead did in the Reviews subforum. We both loved it). His books are short but they hit hard, and Kearney writes with quick precision, showing that epic fantasy does not have to be epic in size to be excellent. He also has other books, including the highly-acclaimed but out-of-print Sea Beggars series that is being held hostage by his former publisher until the rights revert to Kearney in early 2012.

5. A number of other high-quality authors, the classics of fantasy (Tolkien did world-building better than anybody, ever, though Wurts and Martin approach the complexity and depth of what Tolkien did), or delve into historical fiction. Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth and World Without End are excellent historical fiction, epic in scope, and set in medieval England with lots of interesting characters (good, bad, ugly, and everything in between).

And these are just a few examples. There are a lot more:

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/10103-fantasy-recommendations-for-the-unenlightened-2-a.html

So, there is no point fretting. GRRM is excellent, but there are writers who are just as good as he is, with equally compelling and addictive stories for you to sate your appetite until ADWD hits the shelves. You might even decide that you like someone else's stories better!

 

[The Imp]

I personally think that an author has an intention to finish when he starts a series, but this is not a contract in any real sense. The reader is not obligated to buy, the author is not obligated to write (except if they have signed a legal contract, but I don't think that's what you mean, Imp.) Reader beware. Authors are only human.

I wasn't saying that there's actually a legal contract between author and reader in the situation we have with ASOIAF, but I think there's a, hmm what's the right word, implied contract perhaps, or moral contract, or maybe both?

What I'm trying to say is this.

Situation A- GRRM publishes AGOT. He doesn't say that it's part of a series, and doesn't say he will ever write more about Westeros. It's totally clear from the content that there's going to be much more to the story, and readers ask if he plans on another book or books. He answers that he might, depending on other projects and his own creativity. People may have an expectation that there might be more books, and GRRM might publish more, but if anyone complains about the "progress" that he's making on his Westeros tales, he can always say that he never made any promises.

Situation B- GRRM plans a trilogy called ASOIAF, and begins work on the first book in 1991. AGOT is published in 1996, and is already bigger than he had originally planned. About 25% of the book is moved into ACOK, which in part allows him to publish the second book 2 years later. 2 years after that he's published a trilogy but isn't done. 5 years after that the 4th book is done, but alas, the series STILL isn't close to being done. There will now be a total of 7 books, 4 more than the original 3 which were "promised" when he talked about the story that he wanted to tell. Some people are pissed off, others not so much, but nearly everyone who has read the first 4 books says that they eagerly await the 5th book.

But why is this so?

In situation A, GRRM could be at the exact same place that he is in the story and no one could really be critical. He'd probably have lower numbers when talking about total readership. He certainly would have sold fewer books as they were published. In situation B, some people are calling for his head because he made a promise. He said he was going to deliver a completed trilogy, which turned into a septpology, and at times seems to have ASOIAF on a back burner, or even off the entire stove. I think for someone such as the OP, this month long trip to Ireland is a slap in the face and maybe a final psychological straw.

There's actually another problem, a good one i guess. GRRM has done too good of a job writing this series. He's left not just one, but multiple cliffhangers about characters that I really, really care about. What will save Brienne? What happens to a blind Arya? Will the wolves be reunited? The Wall? Dany? The dragons? Tyrion? Cersei? Benjen Stark? Howland Reed? Coldhands/ The Others? Winterfell? Bran? Euron? The Iron Islands? Dorne? Tommen and Myrcella? Sam at the Citadel? Jaqen H'Ghar? etc. etc. etc.

GRRM hooked me and a lot of other people hook, line and sinker. He intentionally wrote these books to be "addictive", or at the very least, wrote them in a style that could cause people to "need to know' what comes next. He made a promise and hasn't delivered.

Could he be sued? I suppose that in this climate where people can sue fast food chains because their coffee was too hot or the food caused them to get fat anything is possible. Would a judge find for the plaintiff or GRRM? GRRM most likely, but who knows

An author can't be forced to write a book, but if that author DOES choose to write a book, and tells his fans that he is writing that book, then the fans IMO have a reasonable expectation that the author will make completing that book his primary focus. That means NOT going to Comicons in Australia, or taking month long trips to ireland at a time that he says he is 5 chapters away from completing a book that was essentially "done" 5 years ago. Keeping that promise does allow that author to have a life, but would place limitations and how much extraneous activity would define the "breaking" of that implied contract.

I hope this made sense, and please, do not think for a second that I personally bear GRRM any ill will. I just think that there are people who might be less than happy with him right now, and i understand why.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

@GryWnd...Now this was a somewhat passive, agressive post

For starters, i'm always leary of anyone who starts their point with "with that being said..."

As per your post, IMHO, you do appear "upset" with the time its taking for ADWD to be release and GRRM's subsequent lack of commitment to finishing the book, let alone the series. (even when you reiterate several times that you're not)

I liken your post to someone awaiting a kidney transplant for years, and when it finally arrives you say, "I dont want it anymore". Yeah "friggin" right. When its available, you will take that kidney ASAP, and be thankful! (No offense to anyone who has been through the whole kidney waiting list senario, as i have lost someone close in a similar manner)

...again, i'm not upset with your post (see how that works?)

Now, with that being said...(I'm having too much fun with this)

I too have felt emotions on both ends of the spectrum about the time it has taken for ADWD to be released, and have made my own empty promises as well.

I have heard/read of ASOIAF fans ridiculed for expressing their feelings in regards to the long wait GRRM has put us through. I personally think its perfectly alright to express your anger, pleasure, or nothing at all when it comes to the wait. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT AND ALSO REACTS DIFFERENT TO DIFFERENT SITUATIONS! People are quick to jump on someone saying the "Author" is only human, but we must remember, the "Reader" is human as well.

 

[Ursa major]

Could he be sued? I suppose that in this climate where people can sue fast food chains because their coffee was too hot or the food caused them to get fat anything is possible. Would a judge find for the plaintiff or GRRM? GRRM most likely, but who knows

What of those cases - I'm sure thI've heard of some, but I can't quote authors and titles - where the series is complete but the publisher has lost interest in publishing the last book? I can't say I've heard of readers suing the publisher for breach of such an unwritten contract with the readers. (I'm assuming the author wouldn't sue as this might reduce their chances of finding another publisher for any of their books.)

 

[TK-421]

As we speak, some GRRM fan in Florida is organizing a book-burning party.

 

[The Imp]

What of those cases - I'm sure thI've heard of some, but I can't quote authors and titles - where the series is complete but the publisher has lost interest in publishing the last book? I can't say I've heard of readers suing the publisher for breach of such an unwritten contract with the readers. (I'm assuming the author wouldn't sue as this might reduce their chances of finding another publisher for any of their books.)

II would guess that those cases would be a simple supply and demand thing. I'd bet that if GRRM\s publisher were to drop ADWD there's be a line of high powered houses trying to sign him up. Conversely, in a free market, businesses can do as they like, except if it's discrimonatory in some way. If a publisher makes an economic decision that a book won't sell a fan's only alternative would be to publish it them self, assuming they had the resources. Or buy a copy from the author.