I no longer feel obligated to purchase ADWD. Is that wrong?

[soulsinging]

After writing this post, i just remembered at the end of AFFC he said ADWD would be out the following year. If that was the case, i would have thought he would be at the "5 chapters left" scenario he's in now. I wonder what made him think he was that close 5 years ago? He must not have approached the meereenese knot during his prediction.

Exactly. That's a big part of why I'm concerned. If the stuff in book 4 was necessary to a clear vision, why did it take 5 years to write a follow up that was supposedly almost done and written at the same time? I can't help but think AFFC was totally new and unanticipated ground for him, and it's been 5 years because when he was doing that writing, he really had no clear idea how the AFFC material tied into what had come before and what he planned to come after and ti was mostly written as an experiment in finding a way to get from SoS to Winds of Winter. He's a remarkable talent and if anyone can pull this together, it's him. But I'm afraid he somewhat wrote himself into a corner of having to deal with plots he'd never anticipated because he couldn't see a way to get from 3 to the end. And rather than taking 10 years to figure that out, he digressed and now has a knot on his hands that looks no closer to being unwound than it was at the start of AGOT.

 

[TK-421]

Whether he's tied himself into a knot, Merenese or not, is perhaps rather subjective and only GRRM himself could truly answer that question. Because writting is a creative exercise, things probably don't always go as planned.

It is important to recall that originally, AFFC was to start after a 3 year gap in the storyline (I think it's 3 years) from the events of ASOS but GRRM then changed his mind and felt it was important not to leave that kind of a gap in the storyline, therefore one could conclude, it was deliberate on his part and not experimental.

Anyways, we are all waiting, some patiently, some not. Some will read ADWD, others won't. Some will preorder it, some will buy it at some point, others will borrow it or wait until they get around to it. That's the choice people will make. Not sure it all really matters to debate it to death.

 

[soulsinging]

It is important to recall that originally, AFFC was to start after a 3 year gap in the storyline (I think it's 3 years) from the events of ASOS but GRRM then changed his mind and felt it was important not to leave that kind of a gap in the storyline, therefore one could conclude, it was deliberate on his part and not experimental.

very true. i'm just saying could just as easily support the conclusion that he doesn't necessarily have control of the story anymore. i hope that's not the case, but my past experiences with series like this make me disinclined to be hopeful.

 

[Ursa major]

.... And now he has to figure out how make the Dornish and the citadel relevant to the ending so as not to make book 4 seem like a meaningless detour.

It started as basically dany and the dragons, the wolves and the lannisters (with a few wildcards in the baratheons and night's watch, who all seemed destined to eventually fall in on one side or the other) and seemed to be heading to some sort of unification and showdown against the mysterious threat of the others. All 3 of the first books were like this, thus why I said they had focus. Book 4 drops all of those plots and suddenly, after a dramatic thinning of the herd in SoS, the ironborn, dornish, and citadel are major players? That definitely seems to me like a late addition that was never part of the original vision when it was supposed to be 3 books. It would be one thing if he just couldn't resolve the wall and the war and dany in just 3 books it stretched into 4-5. It's another when a whole new round of conflicts that seem like they could be part of a totally different series consumes book 4. SoS seemed close, now the ending seems further away than ever.

I think that this is being a little unfair. The set-up was always going to require focus moving beyond the tight circle of rivalries we first see in AGOT. There's a civil war and yet we're meant to believe that the most independant parts of the (combined) realm should remain out of the picture for the whole story? Not very likely, in my opinion. Yes, they may validly hold their fire while their (former) foes fight each other to a standstill, but would they leave it at that? No. They would take advantage of the situation.


If anything, the Iron Island offensive may be a bit early, but I would argue that this avoids two problems:

• Would we really want all that Iron Born stuff just as Dany is ready to cross over to Westeros? Wouldn't that really slow down the last book?
• Would we really want a brief mention that the Iron Born have decided to either continue to sit on their hands or join in with Dany without a murmur? I, frankly, would have thought that unlikely.

It strikes me that the Iron Born were always going to join the fray (but not as late as the Freys ).

The Dornish may or may not have the ambitions of the Iron Born but they are ruled by proud folk who want the best for Dorne. Again, would we want them to be a footnote in the later books?


The only way that this could have been avoided would have been to downplay (or omit) the Iron Islands and Dorne as distinct territories from the start. (Note that AFFC also brings the final - and least offensive? - part of the Seven Kingdoms, the Vale, into the picture, as the new power base of Littlefinger.)

I would argue that all this was intended from the start. Where GRRM may have "gone wrong" - though I'm glad he did - is to assume that he could fit all this (and Dany, and the Free Cities and the rest of Essos) in three books. The end of ASOS is meant to be where AGOT was meant to end. AFFC and ADWD take the place of the second book of the original trilogy and GRRM's decision to not jump three (or five) years ahead can be explained by his need to keep the detail of those first three books (which must be part of the attraction for readers) going through the remainder of the series. The alternative would be a string of flashbacks, draining the momentum of whatever was otherwise beinf discussed: fine for events happening prior to the beginning of AGOT, but not for events within the current timeline, IMHO.

 

[The Imp]

I think that this is being a little unfair. The set-up was always going to require focus moving beyond the tight circle of rivalries we first see in AGOT. There's a civil war and yet we're meant to believe that the most independant parts of the (combined) realm should remain out of the picture for the whole story? Not very likely, in my opinion. Yes, they may validly hold their fire while their (former) foes fight each other to a standstill, but would they leave it at that? No. They would take advantage of the situation.



If anything, the Iron Island offensive may be a bit early, but I would argue that this avoids two problems:

• Would we really want all that Iron Born stuff just as Dany is ready to cross over to Westeros? Wouldn't that really slow down the last book?
• Would we really want a brief mention that the Iron Born have decided to either continue to sit on their hands or join in with Dany without a murmur? I, frankly, would have thought that unlikely.

It strikes me that the Iron Born were always going to join the fray (but not as late as the Freys ).

The Dornish may or may not have the ambitions of the Iron Born but they are ruled by proud folk who want the best for Dorne. Again, would we want them to be a footnote in the later books?


The only way that this could have been avoided would have been to downplay (or omit) the Iron Islands and Dorne as distinct territories from the start. (Note that AFFC also brings the final - and least offensive? - part of the Seven Kingdoms, the Vale, into the picture, as the new power base of Littlefinger.)

I would argue that all this was intended from the start. Where GRRM may have "gone wrong" - though I'm glad he did - is to assume that he could fit all this (and Dany, and the Free Cities and the rest of Essos) in three books. The end of ASOS is meant to be where AGOT was meant to end. AFFC and ADWD take the place of the second book of the original trilogy and GRRM's decision to not jump three (or five) years ahead can be explained by his need to keep the detail of those first three books (which must be part of the attraction for readers) going through the remainder of the series. The alternative would be a string of flashbacks, draining the momentum of whatever was otherwise beinf discussed: fine for events happening prior to the beginning of AGOT, but not for events within the current timeline, IMHO.

Spot on

Just to add my two coppers, it seemed as if AFFC become a dumping ground for every tangential plotline, character, etc. As you said, it does clear the board so to speak, in terms of how events can move in ADWD.

I think the crucial point that we all forget is that AFFC and, to a certain exent, ADWD, are the points which the main story will be funneled. Storylines will merge, characters will certainly die off. Dany will most likely unite everyone, at least for a while. As time passes GRRM should have an easier time finishing the books because he'll have less to write about.

 

[soulsinging]

The Dornish may or may not have the ambitions of the Iron Born but they are ruled by proud folk who want the best for Dorne. Again, would we want them to be a footnote in the later books?

I would argue that all this was intended from the start. Where GRRM may have "gone wrong" - though I'm glad he did - is to assume that he could fit all this (and Dany, and the Free Cities and the rest of Essos) in three books. The end of ASOS is meant to be where AGOT was meant to end. AFFC and ADWD take the place of the second book of the original trilogy and GRRM's decision to not jump three (or five) years ahead can be explained by his need to keep the detail of those first three books (which must be part of the attraction for readers) going through the remainder of the series. The alternative would be a string of flashbacks, draining the momentum of whatever was otherwise beinf discussed: fine for events happening prior to the beginning of AGOT, but not for events within the current timeline, IMHO.

first of all, to answer your question, YES! the compulsive need to endlessly expound on every bit player in the world is exactly what derailed robert jordan. we all got hooked in by the forsaken and the source, and instead got 6 books of seanchan, tar valar, and desert politics. now we've all been hooked by the war between lannisters and wolves with the others waiting in the wings... and instead seemed poised for a few books detailing the internal squabbles of citadel, dorne, ironborn, etc.

where did you hear ASOS is where AGOT was supposed to end? that's new to me. if that's so, i find it more discouraging. and the appeal to me was never the detail and never has been. the appeal was interesting characters battling a creepy menace. i couldn't care less about whose flag looks like what or how dornish politics work. but then, i've always been a critic of fantasy's obsession with world-building.

 

[Ursa major]

first of all, to answer your question, YES! the compulsive need to endlessly expound on every bit player in the world is exactly what derailed robert jordan. we all got hooked in by the forsaken and the source, and instead got 6 books of seanchan, tar valar, and desert politics. now we've all been hooked by the war between lannisters and wolves with the others waiting in the wings... and instead seemed poised for a few books detailing the internal squabbles of citadel, dorne, ironborn, etc.

I've never read any of Jordan's work and don't really intend to. (For one thing, I read more SF than Fantasy.) But again, I think the position of the Citadel was always in there, a group apparently** working for the elimination of magic as it is known in Westeros.

where did you hear ASOS is where AGOT was supposed to end? that's new to me. if that's so, i find it more discouraging. and the appeal to me was never the detail and never has been. the appeal was interesting characters battling a creepy menace. i couldn't care less about whose flag looks like what or how dornish politics work. but then, i've always been a critic of fantasy's obsession with world-building.

It's been mentioned elsewhere in this very forum. (With any luck, TK-421 will give us a list of the threads.) As to the details, I wasn't referring to the flags and the like - my general lack of interest in this aspect may mean I'll miss clues as to what's going on - but more the richness of the setting.

I agree that AFFC is not the easiest read: there's a certain lack of focus, perhaps inevitable in one of the books at the heart of such a complex tale, but it tells us so much about Westeros, particularly in terms of how it's faring after the events of the previous three books. Even in those days long ago when I was taught history, we delved below the level of kings and queens. AFFC tells us the scale of the conflict, the way the land has been brought low, just as it's about to face the twin dangers of Winter and the Others. (Whether Dany is a saviour or a further danger is yet to be seen.)

GRRM is allowing us to see civil war for what it is: brutal, destructive and a destroyer of more than armies, a killer of more than soldiers. Yes, we have previously seen how the Mountain's men have been cruel, but as has been mentioned before in this thread, GRRM has shown how war itself brings out the worst in people as well as, sometimes, the best. And from this cruelly-broken society must come the resources to confront the Others.

Without AFFC, we would have remained routed at the level of inter-House rivalry. With it, we have been immersed in the horror of total war as known before the last couple of centuries***. Given GRRM's stated interestin, for example, the War of the Roses, I can't see how he could have ignored the harrowing of Westeros, not if he were to remain honest with himself. Without it, ASoIaF, how ever well-written, however cleverly plotted, would have lacked truth (which is, surely, what the best SFF delivers however far-fetched the magic or technology).



** - I say apparently because GRRM is tracksy and he may be misleading us.

*** - A look at the death rates of some conflicts before the American Civil War and the World Wars should disabuse us of any thoughts that the ability of man to kill in vast numbers relies on military mechanisation and weapons of mass destruction.

 

[soulsinging]

GRRM is allowing us to see civil war for what it is: brutal, destructive and a destroyer of more than armies, a killer of more than soldiers. Yes, we have previously seen how the Mountain's men have been cruel, but as has been mentioned before in this thread, GRRM has shown how war itself brings out the worst in people as well as, sometimes, the best. And from this cruelly-broken society must come the resources to confront the Others.

If the book focused on that, I'd not have the complaints I do. But that was a small portion, just Brienne's really. Ten chapters on Sam puking and losing his virginity does nothing to drive home the horror of the war. Nor do the politicking and double-crossing of Dorne, a land pretty much completely untouched by the war. Nor do the Ironborn councils, as they were also untouched by the war. He may yet tie these in, but I'm of the opinion that if he got a few thousand pages and 3 books into the story without ever once visiting any of these lands, then they weren't that important.

I guess if you haven't read Jordan you wouldn't understand my concern. I saw the exact same thing happen, also in book four, in the Wheel of Time. The story seemed to be moving forward. It was lively and engaging... and then poof... suddenly we move to totally different lands, completely drop whole characters, and utterly disregard the conflict that, until that book, seemed to be what the whole series was about. What followed is legendary... book after book of new lands, new customs, new political soap opera, and no advancement of the story.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Personally I don't mind the tangents because
(a) they are well written; and
(b) they link to the story.

I also think Ursa makes a good point in regards to the reality of the war. In truth, it makes sense that the Ironborn, who have been brutally confined for so many years, take advantage of the turmoil on the mainland. It makes sense that Dorne may well be involved in one way or another, especially with Danerys coming. That GRRM chooses to tell the story from the inside of each of these factions for mine actually enriches the series.

As for Jordan, my problem was that I don't think his books were as well-written as GRRM's. Even if AFFC did have tangents, I found each chapter to be suspenseful and enjoyable to read. In Jordan's books however, I got to the stage where I was bored and waiting for something to happen.

In any case, I've read that the current breadth of the series is about as wide as it will go. I just hope Mr Martin can pull it off, because if he can, this surely will go down as one of the greatest series of all time.

 

[philzilla]

I also feel the pain of waiting for these books but came late to this series so am not enraged as yet but take into account the other two series i had to wait for and you'll understand my patience:

The Dark Tower, 1982-2004. Longest wait was 6 years between 3 and 4, then again with 4 and 5

Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Between the third of the second chronicles and the first of the last there was a 21 year wait!!

But Donaldson wrote other things.

Don't sully Steven King's understanding of what being a professional writer means.
Yeah King did absolutely nothing between Dark Tower books.

Novels:
The Dark Tower I: The Gunslinger (1982; revised edition, 2003)
The Running Man (as Richard Bachman) (1982)
Christine (1983)
Pet Sematary (1983)
Cycle of the Werewolf (1983)
The Talisman (1984, written with Peter Straub)
Thinner (as Richard Bachman) (1984)
It (1986)
The Eyes of the Dragon (1987)
Misery (1987)
The Dark Tower II: The Drawing of the Three (1987)
The Tommyknockers (1987)
The Dark Half (1989)
Needful Things (1990)
The Dark Tower III: The Waste Lands (1991)
Gerald's Game (1992)
Dolores Claiborne (1993)
Insomnia (1994)
Rose Madder (1995)
The Green Mile (1996)
Desperation (1996)
The Regulators (as Richard Bachman) (1996)
The Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass (1997)
Bag of Bones (1998)
The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon (1999)
Dreamcatcher (2001)
Black House (2001, written with Peter Straub)
From a Buick 8 (2002)
The Dark Tower V: Wolves of the Calla (2003)
The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah (2004)
The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower (2004)



Non-fiction:
Nightmares in the Sky (1988)
On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft (2000)
Secret Windows: Essays and Fiction on the Craft of Writing (2000)

I didn't even include his short stories.
I really dig GRRM and ASOIAF, but clearly Martin is a bit of a lazy writer.
I actually really enjoyed AFFC, thought it was a natural pause in the action of the story and so, was necessary.

 

[soulsinging]

As for Jordan, my problem was that I don't think his books were as well-written as GRRM's. Even if AFFC did have tangents, I found each chapter to be suspenseful and enjoyable to read. In Jordan's books however, I got to the stage where I was bored and waiting for something to happen.

I won't argue that. Even at his most worrisome, he's a far better writer. I think AFFC is still better than Jordan's best.

 

[The Imp]

I had a lot of trouble getting into AFFC, and had always blamed it on having a hard time getting used to not having Roy as the reader. The reader who shall not be named was decent but nowhere near the caliber of Roy. I've since come to realize that it was also because of the way the book started. In retrospect, had GRRM started the book with the first Arya and Cersei chapters, then gone to the Iron Islands and Dorne I think (correct me if i'm wrong) the timeline would have been fine, and the reader would have been more engaged. Even the prologue felt drawn out and out of place. Again, I think that GRRM made a huge mistake in how he choose to break up his 4th book, and another one in how he decided to start AFFC.

 

[Mesanna]

As someone who has stuck with Jordan through 12 volumes (and Crossroads of Twilight was a terrible book that almost made me throw in the towel), I can completely understand the fears that GRRM is going the same way. However, Jordan did get back on track in the end and Brandon continues to move the plot along splendidly. (Though, sometimes I wonder where we'd be if Jordan hadn't become ill, i.e. would he have kicked up a notch and moved the story on the way Brandon has, or would we still be having chapters about Elayne in the bath?) However, I digress.

I would agree that AFfC is definitely not as compelling as the first books, but I'm not jumping to conclusions just yet. I feel that it's not fair to judge a middle book in a series until you know how things pan out. There could be some fantastically exciting things happen in DwD, but they couldn't take place if we hadn't had the meanderings that occurred in AFfC, and when (if) the series is completed and you read the books back to back, AFfC won't stick out like a sore thumb the way it does now. Basically, I'm giving GRRM the benefit of the doubt, though I agree with The Imp where he said it showed bad judgement on GRRM's part to split the books this way. Two or three Tyrion chapters in AFfC might have made all the difference!

ADwD will truly tell whether he's lost control or not and my gut feeling is that he hasn't. I rather think things were beginning to get away from him in Crows, and that's why he's spent 5 years trying to bring all the numerous plot lines to heel. I'd like to believe GRRM now has the plot firmly under control and has a very good idea how to wrap things up in the remaining books, and hopefully can go back to banging out the final couple of books within the next 4 - 5 years. Though, I am probably a self-deluding optimist!

 

[Clansman]

and hopefully can go back to banging out the final couple of books within the next 4 - 5 years. Though, I am probably a self-deluding optimist!

Yup.

 

[Icemark]

I must also say that AFFC was not my best book of the lot - all I seem to remember about it relates to the Brienne chapters that didn't really seem to have a point to it.

My money is on ADWD having loads of action, plot progression and suspense...thus balancing the two books into what it would have been* - had it not been split up in the first place.

* - fantastic!

 

[Mesanna]

I'm with you Icemark. This is exactly what I think (or hope!) Let's give Mr Martin a chance.

It's funny how the thing that everyone seems to remember about AFfC is Brienne wandering around. Does everyone hate Brienne because of this? I agree those chapters weren't the most compelling, but hopefully they will be shown to have a point in ADwD (she says with fingers and toes crossed!)

 

[Icemark]

It's funny how the thing that everyone seems to remember about AFfC is Brienne wandering around. Does everyone hate Brienne because of this? I agree those chapters weren't the most compelling, but hopefully they will be shown to have a point in ADwD (she says with fingers and toes crossed!)

I quite liked Brienne's POV's in earlier books (with Jaime), they were rather interesting. I think it is just that in AFFC I felt that everything that had been set up around her came to nought. Her whole quest meant nothing and leads nowhere, she was chasing after ghosts and then she died at the end (or did she?).

All the "wasted" chapters could have been spared by just killing her off in her first AFFC POV? - I can't quite put my finger on what's wrong....

.....unless, there's more of her in ADWD - which could then change the whole scenario?

 

[Mag the Mighty]

I think I agree with the people who say that AFfC improves for them on subsequent re-reads - I don't know, maybe because after you've read it the first time, you get over the "disappointment" of the missing characters and the fact that it doesn't advance the overarching plot a whole lot.

Having said that, I put the "disappointment" in inverted commas, because I think apart from those factors it's as well-written as the rest of the series, really develops aspects of Westeros that haven't been expanded upon in previous chapters, and unlike some readers I actually really enjoyed the new POVs, providing a different perspective on the story and they were great characters in their own right. And I share the suspicion others have raised that a lot of the new elements introduced are going to turn out to be very important to the development of the story in ADWD and beyond.

All imo, of course...

To address the original post, I think I'll definitely get ADWD when it comes out, maybe not queueing up outside the bookshop or anything, but because having come this far I need to know where the story goes from here, and I'm too impatient/bad at avoiding spoilers to wait for the paperbacks... I tend to feel sort of sorry for GRRM rather than feeling betrayed by him or anything, taking the attitude that I'll read the books whenever he finishes them and maintaining a maybe overoptimistic belief that he'll finish them eventually, but maybe I'm a soft-hearted sap or something.

 

[Niolani]

I'll put my hand up and admit I'm annoyed by the delay. When I finished AFFC and read that he split the book to create ADWD I was under the impression that it'd be out soon then. He'd already mostly written it apparently so of course it'd be published soon enough. Now that's dragged on 5 years and I'm a tad peeved. I would be less peeved if, in my view, we weren't originaly assured that ADWD would be along soon after AFFC.

I was a big fan of Robert Jordan and I agree there are a few similarities of losing the plot with AFFC. I like the Brienne chapters, I think I'd rather it if some of the Dorne stuff got chopped like Areo and Arys, perhaps Ariane. Too much Ironborn as well, could've done without Aeron (it's late here so forgive me if the name's wrong). I didn't like the Cersei chapters either but that may just be because she's so odious. It kinda felt to me like just chucking some chapters in there to fatten the book.

I will buy the book as soon as it comes out, as it is I already reread the series (and WOT) at least 3 times a year.

 

[Pyan]

A Game of Thrones was first published in 1996 - that's fifteen years ago. If ADWD was published tomorrow, that would be an average of three years per volume. An averaging out of the pages in each book, divided by the number of days, (less 50-odd days per year for holidays, etc) gives you a work-rate of about 2/3 of a page a day, which ain't too shabby...

I think a lot of readers were spoiled by the first three books coming out in only four years, making the wait for the follow-ups seem even longer. Personally, I don't feel obligated to buy ADWD, and perhaps I won't even live to see A Dream of Spring, but, hell, it's only one author and one series - and there's an awful lot of non-read books out there to keep me happy until GRRM feels that the book is good enough to publish.