I no longer feel obligated to purchase ADWD. Is that wrong?

[The Imp]

As we speak, some GRRM fan in Florida is organizing a book-burning party.

Only in the land of hanging chads

Any chance of more info about this? Perhaps a link?

 

[Weasel Soup]

I would have to say my urgency or impatience waiting for Dance ended about 2 years ago. I will be buying it the week (not necessarily the day) it comes out. I think the change for me in regards to patience arrived when I stopped looking at the series as books and instead looked at it as a personal gift. Having read the series an average of 4 times per book, more for some volumes, I figure I have already recieved hours and hours of entertainment. Personally, I am more concerned about the series ending than the wait between volumes.

 

[viZion]

Thanks for all of the recommendations, Clansman. One thing I noticed is that many of the series you recommended aren't finished yet. Does anyone ever actually finish a long epic fantasy series (i.e. longer than a trilogy)?

 

[Memnoch]

Totally agree with op here, started to re-read for the third time in anticipation and thought forget it, even with the new book do I really want to wait another 5/6 years for the next instalment, so re-reading Eriksson in anticipation of the Finale to Book of the Fallen, so much better with the re-reads to and they wee awesome to start with! Looking for inspiration to get my teeth into something new, with similar gravitas. Nothing grabs me in Waterstones as it used to sigh . . .

. . . err not that I ever got groped in Waterstones or anything.

 

[The Imp]

I also feel the pain of waiting for these books but came late to this series so am not enraged as yet but take into account the other two series i had to wait for and you'll understand my patience:

The Dark Tower, 1982-2004. Longest wait was 6 years between 3 and 4, then again with 4 and 5

Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Between the third of the second chronicles and the first of the last there was a 21 year wait!!

The first part of The Gunslinger was published in serial form in the late 70's. in looking at what happened to that series post Wizard and Glass, it makes a compelling argument for GRRM to continue on his present course, IMO at least

 

[Clansman]

Thanks for all of the recommendations, Clansman. One thing I noticed is that many of the series you recommended aren't finished yet. Does anyone ever actually finish a long epic fantasy series (i.e. longer than a trilogy)?

Hey, life's too short to read bad books, so I give you the ones that I like and think are good, not the crap that actually got finished. Long epic fantasy series get finished when they are done. Terry Goodkind finished his, but I won't recommend that crap to anyone. Terry Brooks Shannara stuff is merely a cash cow now, and all originality is long since gone from his work. So, the long series that I know of that are finished are not worth recommending.

Sanderson will finish Wheel of Time (it's practically in the can now), and Wurts is two books from being done with The Wars of Light and Shadow, and she has produced, steadily, a big fat book about every 2 to 2.5 years since she started the series. Neither Wurts nor Martin are guilty of the series sprawl that infected Jordan in The Wheel of Time.

Katherine Kurtz finished her Deryni series, though she can always add another book onto the King Kelson story line. Theses were good books when I read them.

Katherine Kerr finished (finally) the Deverry series (though I haven't read the last books yet). I liked the earlier books better than the ones that got into the horsekin business, which is probably why I haven't bothered finishing. They were pretty good stories, though.

 

[dustinzgirl]

I never felt obligated to buy anything. I buy books I like to read, series or no.

I imagine the authors feel the same way about writing them.

 

[The Procrastinator]

I wasn't saying that there's actually a legal contract between author and reader in the situation we have with ASOIAF, but I think there's a, hmm what's the right word, implied contract perhaps, or moral contract, or maybe both?

An author can't be forced to write a book, but if that author DOES choose to write a book, and tells his fans that he is writing that book, then the fans IMO have a reasonable expectation that the author will make completing that book his primary focus. That means NOT going to Comicons in Australia, or taking month long trips to ireland at a time that he says he is 5 chapters away from completing a book that was essentially "done" 5 years ago. Keeping that promise does allow that author to have a life, but would place limitations and how much extraneous activity would define the "breaking" of that implied contract.

What you refer to as implied or moral contract is what I meant by obligation. And I still think there is no real obligation. Of course it would be good if he did. In a perfect world, many things would be good. Like elected leaders keeping their promises. Like people who are paid to do a job doing it and doing it well. Like people in positions of power not using it for personal gain and at the expense of others. GRRM has written a deliberately manipulative story, very true - this is the very thing that made me step back from it as a reader. I'm sorry to have to tell you this Imp - people don't always keep their promises and you can't make them.

Will it be the end of the world if GRRM never finishes the series? What if he finishes it but can't keep up the quality? Will the world end then? Will the fans have to keep buying it because of the "contract"?

Clansman has very good advice. Read other good books - they are out there. In the meantime, let GRRM do what he has to do. Inspiration cannot be forced and is easily destroyed. Writing the books is his problem. If you are determined to wait, then find a good way to wait.

 

[Gry Wnd]

1) Clansman - Thank You, that was the best post on recommendations I've read in this Forum - Should help me get to TWOW

2) IMP- Thanks for taking the heat off me a little

3) LORDSNOW - That's what I was going for, I think.. at least a little,

4) Hadd/TK - Freaking hilarious - I'm actually in Florida, maybe that's part of the problem.

5) Various others - Thanks for pointing out how long some of you have waited for other books.

This has been very therapeutic for me. I maybe able to step back from the ledge a little.

I'm going to have to stay away from his website, because although I feel better now, I've definitely lost my filter that translates his "gone hawking" posts into "I'm sure he'll be working on it later..."

Thanks all - for the help looking at this in a different perspective

 

[The Imp]

What you refer to as implied or moral contract is what I meant by obligation. And I still think there is no real obligation. Of course it would be good if he did. In a perfect world, many things would be good. Like elected leaders keeping their promises. Like people who are paid to do a job doing it and doing it well. Like people in positions of power not using it for personal gain and at the expense of others. GRRM has written a deliberately manipulative story, very true - this is the very thing that made me step back from it as a reader. I'm sorry to have to tell you this Imp - people don't always keep their promises and you can't make them.

Will it be the end of the world if GRRM never finishes the series? What if he finishes it but can't keep up the quality? Will the world end then? Will the fans have to keep buying it because of the "contract"?

Clansman has very good advice. Read other good books - they are out there. In the meantime, let GRRM do what he has to do. Inspiration cannot be forced and is easily destroyed. Writing the books is his problem. If you are determined to wait, then find a good way to wait.

Let me assure you that you haven't provided me with the slightest of revelations by telling me that people break promises. I'll keep my remark to that, since this board is always civil and never sees any sort of flaming. I will say though that i don't appreciate your snarkiness, but maybe it was just a lousy attempt at sarcasm or humor.

As for the "contract". You clearly missed my point. I didn't ask GRRM to say he was writing a trilogy. By saying that was what he was doinghe set up a different expectation for AGOT. People could cut him slack in lots of ways if they know that there would be more to follow. AGOT could be one giant preface, which it almost is, slow to develop, which it is, etc, but knowing there are more books to come allows us to accept that. The first book of any series is viewed differently than a stand-alone novel. Period. No discussion needed.

 

[soulsinging]

Neither Wurts nor Martin are guilty of the series sprawl that infected Jordan in The Wheel of Time.

I beg to differ, which is why I'm siding with the OP. I was late to the game and only read the series 2 years ago, so the wait hasn't really bothered me. But I've already lost interest in ADWD because of the sprawl. GRRM has WoT written all over this series.

As imp pointed out... it was supposed to be a trilogy. Now, somehow, it's suddenly 7. Robert Jordan said he was writing a trilogy at first too. After SoS (which I freely admit to be one of the most impressive books I ever read), it takes 4-5 years to release the next book. Not only that, but it turns out to be so long that he has to "split" the book into two. And on top of THAT, the book released drops most of the interesting characters entirely to focus on Brienne, Sam, and a whole other part of the world that until that book barely factored into the story at all. And then it turns out it probably wasn't actually split. If he just had too much material written for one volume, it wouldn't have taken 5 years to write the next book. So I rather doubt he actually had much of ADWD done at that time and only said it to cover for the fact that he had no idea how to move Jon, Dany, and Tyrion's stories forward. And I'm willing to put money down now that after book 5 or 6, we're going to find out that now it's going to be a 10-book saga.

The writing is on the wall: he's lost control. He doesn't know where he wants to take this series or how to get there. This is exactly what happened to Jordan. The first three were focused and impressive, and then in book 4 everyone gets scattered to the four winds, major characters disappear for whole books at a time, the setting expands beyond the world that was so successful and interesting into new settings of questionable import that need to be built from the ground up (Rand goes into the desert and the seanchan threat emerges, the Dornish are suddenly dominating the story). Does anyone really feel he is anywhere near getting to the heart of the mystery of the others? It's been 4 books and 3000 pages since that chilling introduction to them in the prologue of AGOT, and all we know is certain kinds of rock can hurt them, and it took 3 books to even get that far before it was abandoned entirely in the fourth. Just as Jordan abandoned the idea of the source and the forsaken to devote volumes to various political squabbles, grrm has already turned his back on the others and the dragons to write an entire book about dornish power struggles and sam's boat trip to the citadel.

Given my relatively recent introduction to the series, I don't have as much invested as some perhaps, but I doubt I will be reading any more until the whole thing is done. I don't have it in me for another neverending saga.

For me, it's not about the wait between books (though like I said, I've not been waiting nearly as long), it's the sense I have that he has lost his way with these books. I'd wait 10 years if I felt he knew where the story was going. But he can crank them out every year and I'd be frustrated as long as it seems he's so in love with every idea he has that it demands 10 chapters in the next installment.

 

[Weasel Soup]

Martin is ABSOLUTELY not comparable to Jordan. Ouch!
Yes Martins story drags on, but with reason, Jordan is soooooo obvious.

I'll just say I'm folding my arms and tugging my braid.

 

[The Procrastinator]

Imp: not an attempt at snarkiness, humour or sarcasm. Just an attempt to introduce perspective.

 

[The Imp]

Imp: not an attempt at snarkiness, humour or sarcasm. Just an attempt to introduce perspective.

My apologies then for misunderstanding

 

[The Procrastinator]

No worries.

 

[Clansman]

I beg to differ, which is why I'm siding with the OP. I was late to the game and only read the series 2 years ago, so the wait hasn't really bothered me. But I've already lost interest in ADWD because of the sprawl. GRRM has WoT written all over this series.

As imp pointed out... it was supposed to be a trilogy. Now, somehow, it's suddenly 7. Robert Jordan said he was writing a trilogy at first too. After SoS (which I freely admit to be one of the most impressive books I ever read), it takes 4-5 years to release the next book. Not only that, but it turns out to be so long that he has to "split" the book into two. And on top of THAT, the book released drops most of the interesting characters entirely to focus on Brienne, Sam, and a whole other part of the world that until that book barely factored into the story at all. And then it turns out it probably wasn't actually split. If he just had too much material written for one volume, it wouldn't have taken 5 years to write the next book. So I rather doubt he actually had much of ADWD done at that time and only said it to cover for the fact that he had no idea how to move Jon, Dany, and Tyrion's stories forward. And I'm willing to put money down now that after book 5 or 6, we're going to find out that now it's going to be a 10-book saga.

The writing is on the wall: he's lost control. He doesn't know where he wants to take this series or how to get there. This is exactly what happened to Jordan. The first three were focused and impressive, and then in book 4 everyone gets scattered to the four winds, major characters disappear for whole books at a time, the setting expands beyond the world that was so successful and interesting into new settings of questionable import that need to be built from the ground up (Rand goes into the desert and the seanchan threat emerges, the Dornish are suddenly dominating the story). Does anyone really feel he is anywhere near getting to the heart of the mystery of the others? It's been 4 books and 3000 pages since that chilling introduction to them in the prologue of AGOT, and all we know is certain kinds of rock can hurt them, and it took 3 books to even get that far before it was abandoned entirely in the fourth. Just as Jordan abandoned the idea of the source and the forsaken to devote volumes to various political squabbles, grrm has already turned his back on the others and the dragons to write an entire book about dornish power struggles and sam's boat trip to the citadel.

Given my relatively recent introduction to the series, I don't have as much invested as some perhaps, but I doubt I will be reading any more until the whole thing is done. I don't have it in me for another neverending saga.

For me, it's not about the wait between books (though like I said, I've not been waiting nearly as long), it's the sense I have that he has lost his way with these books. I'd wait 10 years if I felt he knew where the story was going. But he can crank them out every year and I'd be frustrated as long as it seems he's so in love with every idea he has that it demands 10 chapters in the next installment.

I guess the proof of your theory will be in ADWD. I think that once GRRM started actually writing his story, what he needed to finish it turned out to be a lot bigger than he originally thought. If ADWD wanders around the way you feel AFFC does, then I might be inclined to agree. Jordan wandered around for 4 friggin' volumes (7-10) before the story started to get some semblance of control again, a process that Sanderson continued and accelerated with amazing deftness.

Your post actually denies your own point: "The first three were focused and impressive". Tell me how the story could have been wrapped up in one, or even two books, after the ending of ASoS, when everything was in absolute chaos? There is no way it could have been, as huge chunks of the story would have had no resolution or only half-assed ones. GRRM is too good and too experienced a writer to have provided a lot of filler, and I suspect that every word you found laborious in AFFC will tie in nicely, and actually be absolutely necessary, to the resolution. True, it is a set-up book, it does not appear to advance the plot, however, we won't know until GRRM actually produces the last three books.

When he does, I should be retired, but not yet in my dotage (I hope), by that point. I'm only 43 now, so that should just about work.

 

[No One]

Woah - this thread has racked up quick!

My tuppence' worth then: I'm in the same boat as Wybe and Mesanna, having only read the books just under a year ago (in fact the anniversary of the Red Wedding has just recently passed ), so it's difficult to say how I'd feel having waited beyond the deadline for so long.

However frustrated I might become with Martin's scheduling though (and I'm sure all of us would rather he weren't flitting about quite so much) I don't imagine I could ever hold it against him. I certainly wouldn't ever feel the need to start attacking the man on a personal level.

As others have pointed out, there are plenty of other options in the meantime and more great books, fiction and non-fiction, than any one of us could get through in a lifetime. That's not to say I'm not looking forward to ADWD more than any other (because I am), but it strikes me as incredibly narrow-minded to obsess over one series.

One point I'll pick up on is Soulsinging's view that AFFC could represent a major loss of control. That might well be the case (only the sequels will answer that) and GRRM himself has admitted to the series growing far beyond his initial expectations.

The other way of looking at it - as I stated a long while ago somewhere else - is that after ASOS it would've been nigh-on impossible to keep that level of momentum going, or, if he had, GRRM ran the risk of running the story into the ground (which some think anyway, so it's a little bit damned if you do, damned if you don't). What I won't disagree with is that splitting the fourth book may not have been the best of moves on GRRM's part, but how can I honestly judge the logistics he's had to deal with? Short answer: I can't.

Anyway, my view is that AFFC is the beginning of the end; that it was designed to introduce all these new factors which will now become more focused as the series progresses. You could say that's putting a positive spin on it, but then I do believe GRRM is too good of a writer for that not to be his intent. Either way, ADWD should help give us all a better idea of how things are progressing and if (the Seven forbid) the series will need to be bumped up again into more books (which I don't believe will happen).

Done.

 

[Eulalia]

AFFC does seem like a set up book(AGOT was too), for the next set of actions. He had to further introduce and bring the Ironmen, the Citidel, Bravos and Dorne into the action in order to integrate Dany and her invasion--don't you think?

I think Brienne shows how a real hero operates in times of chaos, and that some of it is not glamorous or easy, and some of it is futile and guesswork. I think GRRM likes to show how the smallfolk are doing (that the aftermath of the game of thrones by the government in power struggles results in a feast for crows), and how people like Randall Tarly do their thing (he is an outstanding general but do you like his methods?). He is also tying in Stoneheart and her crew--the vengeful resistence.

Arya is developing into the opposite of Sansa. She is a woman of action learning control. Sansa is a woman of politics, learning how to lead. I think.


I have some faith that he will work things out, even though he got messed up by his original plan to have a 5 year gap. This guy made a semi plausible story to show One Handed Jaime could defeat Rand in probably a few hours of writing.

Using a lot of speculation and pop psychology--I think it could be useful to imagine how extraverts work. Some people (like introverts) work best cloistered, quietly and methodically on one task at a time. But extraverts get recharged when they interact with lots of people and get feedback and energy. GRRM, to me seems like quite an advanced extravert, a people person, an enthusiast. He likes to do lots of things and he does work hard on them, most meticulously and very concerned about the quality of his "children". It's worked for him so far. For us, maybe too slowly on the King Kong book for our comfort, frustrating, and hard to understand, but necessary for him. His books are loaded with characters, the joys and sorrows of life and it is part of why they are good. Can't imagine a disciplened monk like person writing them!

Maybe it will all melt down, who knows?! Stay tuned.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Can i get a show of hands of those who would have preferred AFFC & ADWD to be released when both were done, which means it would be 10 years since the end of ASOS. This would be to prevent this huge head scratching moment in regards to where the story is going that there has been for the last 5 years?

Being that AFFC and ADWD are on the same timeline, i would have preferred both to be released either simultaneously or within a year of each other. (like originally planned i guess)

After writing this post, i just remembered at the end of AFFC he said ADWD would be out the following year. If that was the case, i would have thought he would be at the "5 chapters left" scenario he's in now. I wonder what made him think he was that close 5 years ago? He must not have approached the meereenese knot during his prediction.

 

[soulsinging]

I guess the proof of your theory will be in ADWD. I think that once GRRM started actually writing his story, what he needed to finish it turned out to be a lot bigger than he originally thought. If ADWD wanders around the way you feel AFFC does, then I might be inclined to agree. Jordan wandered around for 4 friggin' volumes (7-10) before the story started to get some semblance of control again, a process that Sanderson continued and accelerated with amazing deftness.

Your post actually denies your own point: "The first three were focused and impressive". Tell me how the story could have been wrapped up in one, or even two books, after the ending of ASoS, when everything was in absolute chaos? There is no way it could have been, as huge chunks of the story would have had no resolution or only half-assed ones. GRRM is too good and too experienced a writer to have provided a lot of filler, and I suspect that every word you found laborious in AFFC will tie in nicely, and actually be absolutely necessary, to the resolution. True, it is a set-up book, it does not appear to advance the plot, however, we won't know until GRRM actually produces the last three books.

When he does, I should be retired, but not yet in my dotage (I hope), by that point. I'm only 43 now, so that should just about work.

I agree, ADWD could right the ship. But all I thought during book 4 was "I've seen this before." I should also clarify I was never comparing GRRM stylistically to Jordan. He's a much better writer and isn't treading water like Jordan did for so long. But I don't think SoS was that far from an end. He said himself it was a plateau and the plan was to jump 5 years ahead. I think that would have been wiser. I feel like filling in those 5 years could easily turn into 4-5 books of politics and consolidating power and the like. SoS had a lot of open ends, but a lot of things did get resolved. Half the major leaders were wiped out and you were down to only a few players left. Instead, book 4 brings it right back to the same number of contenders we started with in book one.

And yes, the Dornish could prove crucial, but that's the problem from my perspective. I can understand the difficulty in trying to tie up the threads after SoS and provide a satisfying resolution. But I feel like he kind of passed the buck. Maybe he was exhausted with the characters and wanted something fresh. But I don't see how adding a whole bunch of new threads is going to make that job any easier. I think he just enjoyed writing about something new and ran with it (thus the lost control thing). And now he has to figure out how make the Dornish and the citadel relevant to the ending so as not to make book 4 seem like a meaningless detour.

It started as basically dany and the dragons, the wolves and the lannisters (with a few wildcards in the baratheons and night's watch, who all seemed destined to eventually fall in on one side or the other) and seemed to be heading to some sort of unification and showdown against the mysterious threat of the others. All 3 of the first books were like this, thus why I said they had focus. Book 4 drops all of those plots and suddenly, after a dramatic thinning of the herd in SoS, the ironborn, dornish, and citadel are major players? That definitely seems to me like a late addition that was never part of the original vision when it was supposed to be 3 books. It would be one thing if he just couldn't resolve the wall and the war and dany in just 3 books it stretched into 4-5. It's another when a whole new round of conflicts that seem like they could be part of a totally different series consumes book 4. SoS seemed close, now the ending seems further away than ever.

I hope I'm wrong. Like you said, ADWD might prove me totally off base with this and I'll be very happy about that. But I don't think featuring a bunch of new characters and nations that used to be fringe players bodes especially well. I'm afraid he was looking for ways to help carry the story to where he originally envisioned it going and ended up making the problem worse.

If anyone has ever seen the great movie Wonder Boys, I'd compare it Prof Tripp. He had a clear idea for a novel of a certain size, but found the more he wrote, the further away the end became. Later the criticism is that he stopped making choices... leaving the real story behind to delve into obscure side tracks like the genealogy of horses (or the politics of the citadel and dornish) because he was unable to make hard choices about his work and keep to the main points. I think that happened to Jordan. I hope it's not happening to GRRM. But I see too many causes for concern right now to have much faith in that.