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U.F.O. Sightings
- Thread starter Starbeast
- Start date
J Riff
The Ants are my friends..
No, it's just the C-Word - it has been tricked up - made into the purvue of crackpots.
Any crime involving two people is a conspiracy. There are many far-reaching, decades-lasting crimes involving companies, governments, private gropus et. al. These are real conspiracies involving vast $$$$$.
Anyone who opposes this view is working for 'them', intentional or not.
Any crime involving two people is a conspiracy. There are many far-reaching, decades-lasting crimes involving companies, governments, private gropus et. al. These are real conspiracies involving vast $$$$$.
Anyone who opposes this view is working for 'them', intentional or not.
In the interests of a smile I re-offer my last 75 word challenge as a way for us to sit down and have tea:
The captain sighed. It was time for first contact with the humans. They had watched and waited. Their orders were clear. They were to make a peaceable contact. However, the order from the exosociologist-in-charge made her very uneasy. With great reservations she pushed “start.” Her ship started spinning, lights started flashing, and the speakers started blasting out the musical message. “Why can’t we be friends...” She feared she knew why the group was called “War.
Who could resist a disco ball spinning music machine?
Starbeast
Benevolent Galaxy Being
There are people who still believe it happened.
(Jesse Marcel holding pieces of a weather balloon)
skeptical: My own scepticism of the alien interpretation of UFO's began when I was a teenager. I read a couple of George Adamski's books.
George Adamski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then I read an expose of Adamski's books, written by a sceptical person. I realised that I was an idiot to take that crackpot's writings seriously. I also realised from that expose that each and every photo in Adamski's books had been faked. The expose even explained how to fake photos like that, and included a number of such fakes.
(George Adamski)
Even though I was thoroughly disillusioned, I kept an interest in the subject and I have read of a number of alternative explanations for people's experiences. If you have full information, it is not too hard to find mundane explanations.
(One of many photos from George Adamski)
For example : any report by individuals (or even small groups) which are eye witness accounts - well, to take them seriously you have to assume that the person(s) recounting the sightings are not :
1. Hoaxers
2. Liars
3. Nutters
4. Dreamers.
(concept art of Mr Adamski's contact)
That is an assumption that cannot be made, unless there is overwhelming independent evidence.
I always found it interesting that a great number of people believed his stories without question or checking for any evidence to support his claims, and he had fans that followed him blindly.
skeptical: Another point is that no memory of something dramatic like a UFO, that is more than a few years old, can be considered reliable. Like the trout that grew, UFO stories change in the repeated telling. This does not represent dishonesty. Just the normal fact that human memory is malleable.
In the same way, I suspect that Starbeast's black object was probably a 'floater', and the memory of a relatively trivial event has been magnified by the modified memory that comes of retelling a story many times.
None of my explanations, of course, are certain, since I do not have all the facts, and I cannot run any test to check my hypotheses. However, the "aliens are with us" hypothesis seems much, much, less likely.
You still make a very good hypothesis, a good friend of mine made the same point.
She did make a vaild hypothesis too.
Starbeast
Benevolent Galaxy Being
Alien Proof?
You do make a very strong point, photos that show a large strange aquatic beasts swimming, or giant hairy man-like creatures roaming wooded areas and odd phenomenon in the sky can be all easily faked. Especially now-a-days with the kind of technology we have today, and with that said, it makes it even harder to sift through the mountains of pictures to find authentic photographic proof.
You do make a very strong point, photos that show a large strange aquatic beasts swimming, or giant hairy man-like creatures roaming wooded areas and odd phenomenon in the sky can be all easily faked. Especially now-a-days with the kind of technology we have today, and with that said, it makes it even harder to sift through the mountains of pictures to find authentic photographic proof.
For example, a great number of people believed this was a real photograph of an alien space craft for a few decades. However, if you carefully look closer, you can see the shadow of the small "UFO" (model) on the truck and the reflection of the truck on the underside of the "UFO" (made from car hubcaps).
ScrambleEggHead
ESgcgrHaemabdle User
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2010
- Messages
- 33
But the question is what makes a conspiracy a conspiracy? The fact that it isn't based on truth? What if it is based on truth? Is it still a conspiracy?
And by the way, the Mafia is not a conspiracy in the same category as UFO believers.
The purpose of the Mafia is to make lot's of money for it's members (and clients), doing things that would generally be considered illegal. Yes, there is some motivation to hide the things they do, but there is little motivation to portray a false image of what they do, see, or perpetrate. In point of fact, they are scary, and they want you to believe that they are scary. By definition of law, the Mafia do engage in conspiracy because they "plan" to do the evil things they do as a group.
People who've seen UFO's do not really constitute a conspiracy, because it is not generally an intentional group thing. I'm sure there have been such pranks, but I would suggest that as more the exception than the rule. There are as many ways to dismiss what people have experienced as there are things that people have experienced. Reality is subjective, and that's the plain truth. You can reason away things that people tell you all you want, but that isn't going to change the experience that they are recalling.
J-WO
Author of 'Pennyblade' and 'Feral Space'
Skeptical,
I've been trawling through wikipedia looking at historical conspiracies and, I have to say, your 'rule of seven' holds water thus far. Fascinating.
Initially I thought 'Hang on- the assasination of Caesar had nearly 40 conspiritors in all, but I soon recalled that a)- they got down to the job pretty quickly, B)- although there were 40ish they would meet up in groups of five and have go betweens and c)- the conspiracy actually was given away to Marc Anthony, though he couldn't help in time.
Watergate had more than seven and the Gunpowder plot had twelve. Interestingly, while wikipeading, I found that some in England believed the Gunpowder plot itself to be a conspiracy, in order to make the populace fear Catholics and thus strengthen King James' position. Guy Fawkes was a patsy!
I've been trawling through wikipedia looking at historical conspiracies and, I have to say, your 'rule of seven' holds water thus far. Fascinating.
Initially I thought 'Hang on- the assasination of Caesar had nearly 40 conspiritors in all, but I soon recalled that a)- they got down to the job pretty quickly, B)- although there were 40ish they would meet up in groups of five and have go betweens and c)- the conspiracy actually was given away to Marc Anthony, though he couldn't help in time.
Watergate had more than seven and the Gunpowder plot had twelve. Interestingly, while wikipeading, I found that some in England believed the Gunpowder plot itself to be a conspiracy, in order to make the populace fear Catholics and thus strengthen King James' position. Guy Fawkes was a patsy!
Michael01
Coven of the Worm
How ironic. I just wrote a paper about this very subject for my “Cosmic Origins” class. The instructor told us we could write about anything we wanted as long as it was “controversial.” I chose ancient astronaut and intervention theory. But before I get into that, I will relate my personal experiences and my interpretations of them (which I did not include in my paper), in accordance with the original purpose of this thread.
When I was about twelve, my mother, my brother and I stood outside watching something that seemed relatively odd but not “freaky”—at least not in my estimation. What was really odd was that their descriptions of this event were entirely different from mine. They say they saw what many people report in cases like this: oval shaped lights dancing around in the sky. I saw only bright red lights that looked like stars, apparently stationary, that slowly faded away and disappeared. This suggests that they could have been moving upward, I suppose, but that’s merely speculation on my part.
I have no interpretation of this. Of course, I can come up with any number of fairly reasonable explanations for it, but what I can’t explain is why I saw something different. It could be psychological, I suppose.
The second incident was when I was about eighteen. I was with a group of friends in a rural area, the only covered bridge remaining in Maryland. We saw a large black silhouette against the clear night sky, with no lights, moving in complete silence but not very high. It seemed to move like a large feather, wavering slightly back and forth except it progressed with a slow, forward motion.
I don’t know how to interpret this, either, although some ideas come to mind. The first thing is perhaps something like a kite, which seems extremely unlikely. Another is some kind of top-secret aircraft—maybe. Surely, we could all think of some explanations that are more likely than an alien spacecraft. Regardless, I have no idea what it really was.
Like many science buffs, I am inclined to believe in extraterrestrial intelligence. I’m just not sure how viable it is for them to reach us through the vast distances of space. I think it’s possible, but that’s as far as it goes.
So…I did a lot of research for my paper and my conclusion was that all the evidence is inconclusive—either way. There are some things I have questions about, which I think are valid questions requiring further investigation. I do not think these “questions” constitute evidence, however.
Some of those questions involve the genetic differences between humans and the primate species to which we are most closely related and possible ruins of antediluvian civilizations—among other things.
While the genetic evidence concurs that we are, in fact, more closely related to chimpanzees than any other species on Earth, what seems like a relatively small difference is actually quite astounding. The differences amount to something like 30 million base pairs, while most other closely related species share a lot more of their DNA. Also, all other primates have forty-eight chromosomes but humans have only forty-six. I do not believe this is evidence that aliens genetically engineered humans, although it is one (albeit highly unlikely) possibility. A more reasonable explanation is that humans experienced an unprecedented rate of evolution due to exposing themselves to more environmental pressures than any other large species on Earth. This explanation is also a bit unconventional, although it has a much higher probability of being true.
As for the ruins, if they are ruins of prehistoric cities, I still see no reason to attribute them to alien influence. I dislike any theory that suggests humankind is not capable of such feats, as many ancient astronaut theorists like to claim. In every documentary I’ve ever seen on the subject, someone always says, “There’s no way humans at that time could have done this without help.” I just can’t get behind that statement.
One example is the Great Pyramid. On the History Channel’s Ancient Alien series, the Publisher of Legendary Times Magazine Giorgio A. Tsoukalos said, “You would have to cut, transport, and put into place one stone every nine seconds” to complete such a building in the twenty-two year time frame many scholars claim. But did the ancient Egyptians actually cut and transport the stones from the quarry to the building site? At least one, I think rather reliable, study suggests they did not (at least not for all the stones). An article from Live Science by Sheila Beringer and Dorilona Rose focuses on the research of Michel Barsoum, Michael Carrell, and Joseph Davidovits. These researchers performed “scanning electron microscope observations and other [tests]” and concluded that many of the stones were a mixture of broken limestone and other elements similar to cement or concrete. If this is correct (and it seems likely), the Egyptians had no need to carry the stones and they could have built the Great Pyramid in twenty-two years without divine or alien intervention.
I also have questions about some of the relics and descriptions in religious or mythological texts. Perhaps these questions are valid (and, for my own reasons, I think they are), but they are not “evidence.”
A book by Jenny Randles was also very interesting in some respects, although I didn’t read the first half because it was mostly eye-witness accounts. I think I’ve heard enough of them by now that I probably won’t see anything new in them. But I did read the last few chapters, when she discusses possible explanations for alien abduction. Despite the fact that she had her own UFO experiences, she still considers the possibility of purely psychological phenomena to be a valid path of inquiry. Of course, she also thought it was equally possible the “aliens” actually were gods, angels, or some other type of spiritual entity with similar agendas, just as the ancients described in their texts. The one I liked was the idea of some kind of step in human biological evolution.
Anyway, like I said, I think the evidence is inconclusive either way. The context does suggest that there is some reason to speculate alien visitation and intervention, but it isn’t the only explanation—and certainly not the most likely. I guess you could say I’m “on the fence.”
I’d just like to leave you all with one final thought. Skeptical: Your observations concerning conspiracies are probably true, but must that mean people will believe the whistleblowers? Even if they spout their knowledge to the world, will they be able to produce evidence themselves? If there was solid evidence, could they spirit it away from whatever protections are likely in place to prevent them from such action—alive ( ...just adding a bit of melodrama)? As far as possibilities go, I think conspirators, especially those in positions of authority, are very good at feeding misinformation to the general public. Again, this doesn’t mean they’re hiding aliens or alien technology; I just think they might be able to handle some leaks and still mislead most people about the “whole truth.”
When I was about twelve, my mother, my brother and I stood outside watching something that seemed relatively odd but not “freaky”—at least not in my estimation. What was really odd was that their descriptions of this event were entirely different from mine. They say they saw what many people report in cases like this: oval shaped lights dancing around in the sky. I saw only bright red lights that looked like stars, apparently stationary, that slowly faded away and disappeared. This suggests that they could have been moving upward, I suppose, but that’s merely speculation on my part.
I have no interpretation of this. Of course, I can come up with any number of fairly reasonable explanations for it, but what I can’t explain is why I saw something different. It could be psychological, I suppose.
The second incident was when I was about eighteen. I was with a group of friends in a rural area, the only covered bridge remaining in Maryland. We saw a large black silhouette against the clear night sky, with no lights, moving in complete silence but not very high. It seemed to move like a large feather, wavering slightly back and forth except it progressed with a slow, forward motion.
I don’t know how to interpret this, either, although some ideas come to mind. The first thing is perhaps something like a kite, which seems extremely unlikely. Another is some kind of top-secret aircraft—maybe. Surely, we could all think of some explanations that are more likely than an alien spacecraft. Regardless, I have no idea what it really was.
Like many science buffs, I am inclined to believe in extraterrestrial intelligence. I’m just not sure how viable it is for them to reach us through the vast distances of space. I think it’s possible, but that’s as far as it goes.
So…I did a lot of research for my paper and my conclusion was that all the evidence is inconclusive—either way. There are some things I have questions about, which I think are valid questions requiring further investigation. I do not think these “questions” constitute evidence, however.
Some of those questions involve the genetic differences between humans and the primate species to which we are most closely related and possible ruins of antediluvian civilizations—among other things.
While the genetic evidence concurs that we are, in fact, more closely related to chimpanzees than any other species on Earth, what seems like a relatively small difference is actually quite astounding. The differences amount to something like 30 million base pairs, while most other closely related species share a lot more of their DNA. Also, all other primates have forty-eight chromosomes but humans have only forty-six. I do not believe this is evidence that aliens genetically engineered humans, although it is one (albeit highly unlikely) possibility. A more reasonable explanation is that humans experienced an unprecedented rate of evolution due to exposing themselves to more environmental pressures than any other large species on Earth. This explanation is also a bit unconventional, although it has a much higher probability of being true.
As for the ruins, if they are ruins of prehistoric cities, I still see no reason to attribute them to alien influence. I dislike any theory that suggests humankind is not capable of such feats, as many ancient astronaut theorists like to claim. In every documentary I’ve ever seen on the subject, someone always says, “There’s no way humans at that time could have done this without help.” I just can’t get behind that statement.
One example is the Great Pyramid. On the History Channel’s Ancient Alien series, the Publisher of Legendary Times Magazine Giorgio A. Tsoukalos said, “You would have to cut, transport, and put into place one stone every nine seconds” to complete such a building in the twenty-two year time frame many scholars claim. But did the ancient Egyptians actually cut and transport the stones from the quarry to the building site? At least one, I think rather reliable, study suggests they did not (at least not for all the stones). An article from Live Science by Sheila Beringer and Dorilona Rose focuses on the research of Michel Barsoum, Michael Carrell, and Joseph Davidovits. These researchers performed “scanning electron microscope observations and other [tests]” and concluded that many of the stones were a mixture of broken limestone and other elements similar to cement or concrete. If this is correct (and it seems likely), the Egyptians had no need to carry the stones and they could have built the Great Pyramid in twenty-two years without divine or alien intervention.
I also have questions about some of the relics and descriptions in religious or mythological texts. Perhaps these questions are valid (and, for my own reasons, I think they are), but they are not “evidence.”
A book by Jenny Randles was also very interesting in some respects, although I didn’t read the first half because it was mostly eye-witness accounts. I think I’ve heard enough of them by now that I probably won’t see anything new in them. But I did read the last few chapters, when she discusses possible explanations for alien abduction. Despite the fact that she had her own UFO experiences, she still considers the possibility of purely psychological phenomena to be a valid path of inquiry. Of course, she also thought it was equally possible the “aliens” actually were gods, angels, or some other type of spiritual entity with similar agendas, just as the ancients described in their texts. The one I liked was the idea of some kind of step in human biological evolution.
Anyway, like I said, I think the evidence is inconclusive either way. The context does suggest that there is some reason to speculate alien visitation and intervention, but it isn’t the only explanation—and certainly not the most likely. I guess you could say I’m “on the fence.”
I’d just like to leave you all with one final thought. Skeptical: Your observations concerning conspiracies are probably true, but must that mean people will believe the whistleblowers? Even if they spout their knowledge to the world, will they be able to produce evidence themselves? If there was solid evidence, could they spirit it away from whatever protections are likely in place to prevent them from such action—alive (
...just adding a bit of melodrama)? As far as possibilities go, I think conspirators, especially those in positions of authority, are very good at feeding misinformation to the general public. Again, this doesn’t mean they’re hiding aliens or alien technology; I just think they might be able to handle some leaks and still mislead most people about the “whole truth.”
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J Riff
The Ants are my friends..
Aliens and other far-out stuff, sure, someone will blab so what? No proof. But the Government...and certain other loosely-related groups- are sitting on mountains of lies, huge ones. Pull out one brick, one big story and down it all comes. Self-protecting, lotta money at stake. Hundreds of people can talk, thousands can know something is wrong, yet it sits there. That theory of seventy is wot's half-baked. Maybe it makes sense in that, sure, someone may talk, but nothing happens!
Oh, someone is alive who was present on the grassy knoll that fateful day?? One of six and a half people, just barely able to avoid talking!!...TRY and talk about this stuff. Even if you have the goods, it's off to the nuthatch.
Oh, someone is alive who was present on the grassy knoll that fateful day?? One of six and a half people, just barely able to avoid talking!!...TRY and talk about this stuff. Even if you have the goods, it's off to the nuthatch.
Michael01
Coven of the Worm
Exactly! A friend of mine once said to me, "Governments are self-sustaining entities." Seems pretty accurate. They will surely do whatever it takes to stay in power and keep us looking the other way when they want. One way is to make things as confusing as possible, so we're left scratching our heads and wondering, "What just happened here?"
Something leaks, someone gets locked up (could be someone labeled a crackpot; sometimes the conspirators are caught - or so we're led to believe), and we're left with bits of the truth, rumors, and wild theories that are probably far off the mark.
EDIT: So I'm still likely to scoff at conspiracy theories. The truth is probably buried too deeply to sort it out from the mess. Oh, wait...that actually constitutes a sort of conspiracy theory, doesn't it?
EDIT again: Sorry. I forgot to mention that the "large black silhouette" was triangular. Even though there were no lights, we could still see it because it was fairly close - not far above the treetops, I think.
Something leaks, someone gets locked up (could be someone labeled a crackpot; sometimes the conspirators are caught - or so we're led to believe), and we're left with bits of the truth, rumors, and wild theories that are probably far off the mark.
EDIT: So I'm still likely to scoff at conspiracy theories. The truth is probably buried too deeply to sort it out from the mess. Oh, wait...that actually constitutes a sort of conspiracy theory, doesn't it?
EDIT again: Sorry. I forgot to mention that the "large black silhouette" was triangular. Even though there were no lights, we could still see it because it was fairly close - not far above the treetops, I think.
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Michael
Couple of points.
First on pyramids.
A researcher recently took a sample of pyramid rock and analysed it. He found he could 'make' pyramid stone in a process similar to pouring concrete. It seems to be a mixure of several components that set solid. All those components were readily available to ancient Egyptians. Assuming he is correct, this kinda takes away the mystery of how the pyramids were made, don't you think?
http://www.livescience.com/history/070518_bts_barsoum_pyramids.html
Second :
Back to conspiracy theory. Let me put this in everyday terms to make it easy to understand.
Imagine you have just found out that your teenage sister is pregnant, and her boyfriend has just skipped the country. This is a 'hot' secret. Now imagine you tell someone, after swearing him/her to secrecy. You now have a significant risk the secret will be revealed. Now imagine you tell ten people, after swearing them to secrecy. You can absolutely guarantee the secret will be common knowledge within days!
The hypothetical situation we are discussing is that the 'hot' secret is that a few of the UFO sightings are of aliens exploring the Earth. This is now a government secret. How many people will share that secret? Obviously, the top officials and their staff. Researchers and their staff. and no doubt, others also. Total is dozens, if not hundreds of people. Chances of the secret being revealed? Exactly 100%.
Since the whistleblower is someone with access to the data, that person undoubtedly would have access to the evidence also. There would be no secret left.
Couple of points.
First on pyramids.
A researcher recently took a sample of pyramid rock and analysed it. He found he could 'make' pyramid stone in a process similar to pouring concrete. It seems to be a mixure of several components that set solid. All those components were readily available to ancient Egyptians. Assuming he is correct, this kinda takes away the mystery of how the pyramids were made, don't you think?
http://www.livescience.com/history/070518_bts_barsoum_pyramids.html
Second :
Back to conspiracy theory. Let me put this in everyday terms to make it easy to understand.
Imagine you have just found out that your teenage sister is pregnant, and her boyfriend has just skipped the country. This is a 'hot' secret. Now imagine you tell someone, after swearing him/her to secrecy. You now have a significant risk the secret will be revealed. Now imagine you tell ten people, after swearing them to secrecy. You can absolutely guarantee the secret will be common knowledge within days!
The hypothetical situation we are discussing is that the 'hot' secret is that a few of the UFO sightings are of aliens exploring the Earth. This is now a government secret. How many people will share that secret? Obviously, the top officials and their staff. Researchers and their staff. and no doubt, others also. Total is dozens, if not hundreds of people. Chances of the secret being revealed? Exactly 100%.
Since the whistleblower is someone with access to the data, that person undoubtedly would have access to the evidence also. There would be no secret left.
Michael01
Coven of the Worm
This is exactly what I quoted in my post. It was exactly the point I wanted to make. To repeat what I said:
So, yeah. I do think.
However, my point about a huge conspiracy conducted by people with plenty of power and money is that it doesn't matter if the secret gets out. At least not immediately. There are too many people in the world to reach them all or even convince a signifcant number of them so quickly, and too many ways to sweep it under the rug. Over time, it might actually become common knowledge. The conspirators obviously cannot keep a tight rein on it for long, but they can sow the seeds of doubt and make them stick in many (not all) minds for a little longer. Perhaps even a few decades or more, before they lose complete control.
In fact, I'm inclined to think it's possible (not at all definite, just possible) that not all the conspirators involved in Watergate were caught. Those who were caught might not even know everyone involved. J-WO's example of Caesar's assasination comes to mind - each individual does not need to know all the others. Then, when someone gets caught, you have your fall guys. And yeah, even a President can take a fall in something like this, because there are definitely more powerful people in the US than him (since he's probably got his hands in their pockets). At least, this scenario seems plausible to me. Remember, despite the Watergate scandal and subsequent impeachment, Nixon is still revered as a former President of the United States (in some ways - although ridiculed in others).
EDIT: I pretty much feel the same about this as I do with alien theories: there are some points that need clarification. It does not necessarily mean something outlandish is happening and it certainly isn't evidence for anything, but it does mean that not all of the questions have been answered satisfactorily.
Edt again: Sorry, when I said "the 'evidence' is inconclusive," I should have said "the data is inconclusive."
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Starbeast
Benevolent Galaxy Being
Wikileaks: U.F.O. info to come!
I am always pleased to see secret stuff exposed. I am a fan of Wikileaks. It represents a movement towards real transparency in government, which can only be healthy.
On UFO's, I predict a pretty ho hum release. If there had been anything dramatic, we would have heard of it by now.
But whatever. Long live Julian Assange and confusion to his enemies!
On UFO's, I predict a pretty ho hum release. If there had been anything dramatic, we would have heard of it by now.
But whatever. Long live Julian Assange and confusion to his enemies!
J Riff
The Ants are my friends..
Unreleased UFO material? Is there any Scorpions tunes?
Seriously, nothing will change. WikiLeaks can come on over, I'll talk, but nothing will happen because there's $$$ involved. That's the bottom line, every time.
Seriously, nothing will change. WikiLeaks can come on over, I'll talk, but nothing will happen because there's $$$ involved. That's the bottom line, every time.
Michael01
Coven of the Worm
Interesting. Well, we'll see, I guess.
I predict...you're probably right.
Darn, I'm such an agnostic when it comes to UFOs.
Edit: Checking out Wikileaks for the first time. I didn't pay much attention to it before because of the "wiki" (making it seem similar to Wikipedia in my mind). Seems rather journalistic, though. Maybe it's easier to expose secrets and conspiracies than I previously thought. Over 390,000? Really? That's extremely unprecedenteed, isn't?
I predict...you're probably right.
Darn, I'm such an agnostic when it comes to UFOs.
Edit: Checking out Wikileaks for the first time. I didn't pay much attention to it before because of the "wiki" (making it seem similar to Wikipedia in my mind). Seems rather journalistic, though. Maybe it's easier to expose secrets and conspiracies than I previously thought. Over 390,000? Really? That's extremely unprecedenteed, isn't?
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J Riff
The Ants are my friends..
The Wikssters would have been stopped if they had any real dirt, any expensive stuff. I'd like to say I'm hopeful, but these exposes have shown up before. Think anyone will lay charges on, say, NASA? If they do, the payoff will go to the wrong people! Their people. Bulletproof.
Still..... here's hoping.
Still..... here's hoping.
Michael01
Coven of the Worm
Hmm. Interesting thoughts. Is there a thread for Wikileaks? I mean, we're sort of within context, but if I express anymore thoughts on this I might start a derail.
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