On Jaime and on rereading the books (SPOILERS)

[Hilarious Joke]

Fellow ASOIAFers,

Boaz brought up the possibility that Jaime the Kingkiller might be able to become Jaime the Kingmaker, and when asked to elaborate posted this. And I would have replied to it there except that I have a bad tendency to derail threads and plus I would like to hear other's thoughts on the topic, if interested!

So a few things:

1. How does Jaime feel towards his children? I can't recall how he reacted to Joffrey's death (I gather he wasn't too upset about it).

2. I'm unsure Jaime would want to keep Tommen on the throne at all costs, or at least, I don't think he would be pleased with Cersei holding the King's power. In any case, who do you think he would like to be made King if Tommen is removed? Boaz suggests Myrcella and Gendry. My instinct says that he would agree with Tyrion's choice (despite their acrimonious separation), which I assume will be Danerys, except that Jaime may not want to crown a Targaryen when he himself was instrumental in overthrowing (and indeed killing) the last Targaryen monarch. Or perhaps that will be a final irony for him? Another option I think is perhaps Uncle Kev.

3. I was reading today about Jaime on the ASOIAF wiki and found out I had completely forgotten that Cersei slept with Lancel. When did this happen??

4. The fact that I can't recall such things suggests that I should do a reread of the series before ADWD comes out. I did have some idea that I would do this when its release is announced. However, I imagine that, even if those were the only books I read, it would take a while, in which case I might not be finished my reread by the time ADWD is released. This would mean I'd have to stay away from this part of the forums for longer than the time needed to read ADWD (since I'd hate to have anything spoiled). And I don't really want to do that! So my choice is either to just read ADWD when it comes out, or perhaps start a reread now and hope that the books are still fresh in mind when it comes out, or maybe read summaries of the books so far on the interweb before I start it. I'm terrible at making choices! What are other people doing?!

5. There is no five.

Happy New Year!

HJ.

 

[Culhwch]

Well,-

1. I think he's quite indifferent toward his children - I doubt he has feelings for them either way, fond or not.

2. This is an intriguing question. I can't see Jaime aiding Dany, but then not that long ago I couldn't see Jaime doing pretty much anything he did from his capture onward. I like to think that of all his familial ties, it is his bond with Tyrion that is strongest, and that he'd actively work to seek his brother's forgiveness. Switching sides to teh Targs might be the way he does this - but would Dany accept the help of the man who opened her father's throat? DOubtful, I should think. In any case, I can't see him supporting Big Kev for the throne.

3. During the time Jaime was imprisoned and on his way back to King's Landing with Brienne. Cersei obviously likes a certain type, that type being a blood relation...

4. Start reading now. I'd suggest a release date of mid-year isn't out of the realm of possibility, so the books would be nice and fresh in your mind if so. Actually, I might take my own advice on that.

5. Ignore this point. It does not exist. Your eyes are lying to you.

And a Happy New Year to you too, my southern ornithorynchus friend!

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Hahaha thanks Cul.

I didn't even think about how Danerys would feel about Jaime supporting her claim. Still, I think GRRM has a soft spot for unlikely alliances: think Jon Snow and Stannis; Brienne and Jaime; Tyrion and the mountain tribes. Then again, what good is Jaime to Danys? She already will have (presumably) a Lannister and a cunning strategist in Tyrion. Jaime can't even fight all that well anymore.

I note that you didn't actually put forward an alternative as to who Jaime would then support! It's a tough one, isn't it!

 

[NightStalker]

1. In one of the books there was a time when Jaime looked at Tommen (I think it was) and said that although he was his father he didn't feel like it because they had grown up as Robert's and the only feelings Jaime has of them are Uncly feelings. It wasn't those words obviously

2. I don't think Jaime cares much for Cersei anymore, and her in control would certainly be considered the wrong thing since she's a bit crazy. I find it hilarious reading her POV and watching her stumble. The fact that she thinks she is exactly like Tywin is just as funny. But back to the point. I don't think Jaime will help Dany since she is likely to kill him because that's what she does(I don't like her much, sorry guys, though she's worthy of admiration) I think Tyrion is more likely to be the one who places the kings and queens in their places for the game of thrones. He and Littlefinger seem to be the best players. I'm unsure what Jaime will do for Tommen, he is the Commander of the Kingsguard and he wouldn't harm a young child now especially not his nephew[son]

3. Tyrion worked it out and Culhwch answered it for you

4. Depends on your reading skill and speed. I started AGOT and was halfway through AFFC at the end of the week. Although, I didn't get much sleep because whenever I put the book down and switched the light off I could never sleep because there was something bugging me at the back of my mind =D lol

5. ... erm.. yeah.....I agree completely :L uh.. wha-?

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Well in response to you NightStalker

1. Thanks for the clarification! Also, Uncly is a fantastic word.

2. I think that Littlefinger is actually the best player at the game. Though perhaps Tyrion will learn from his mistakes and compete for that title (he's not far off). As for this:

I'm unsure what Jaime will do for Tommen, he is the Commander of the Kingsguard and he wouldn't harm a young child now especially not his nephew[son]

What about Bran?! Crippling him was the only thing I don't think I can ever forgive Jaime for.

3. And did Lancel tell Jaime about it as a sort of confessional thing since he's gone all religious?

4. I don't know about my reading skill! I would have thought I'd be pretty good by now. However I don't think I could do most of the series in a week!! I'm not sure I could do that even if I didn't have any other obligations. I was looking at the books today (for a quote incidentally) and realised that the writing is in fact in quite a small font, on top of them already being large books. No wonder it takes GRRM so long!

5. Still no five I'm afraid.

 

[NightStalker]

1. Np glad you like it, it was the only word I could think of to use at the time xD

2. Littlefinger is one of my favourites, because he's so unpredictable! As for Bran, well I did mention that he wouldn't harm a young child now. "The things I do for love" he said before pushing Bran off the tower, but he doesn't even love Cersei (so much) anymore. He refused to go to her when she pleaded for his help and even wonders sometimes how he had loved her. And no one can deny that he changed since travelling with Brienne and losing his sword hand (along with his pride and knight-ness) so now I think he may have second or even third thoughts about the actions he makes.

3. I reckon so. He's a bit of a weed if you ask me. But an honest one anyway, maybe he'll step in against Cersei as another witness since he slept with her.

4. I know, the second book is about as thick as AGOT but the font is even smaller!! I may actually have to re-read them all aswell, because when I read fast I feel I don't always take it in properly, although I can recall all (or most) of the events I think I'll read them again anyway

5. Aww.. poor no.5 .. we'll have to come up with one soon..

 

[The Imp]

This reminded me of Tyrion's interaction with Lancel, where the young fool goes from being arrogant and obnoxious to agreeing to be Tyrion's lapdog. It's one of my favorite Tyrion"encounters"

Sorry about the slight derailment.

 

[Boaz]

Boaz brought up the possibility...

You've had your curiosity aroused by me? We're in trouble.

What are other people doing?!

I'm turning in the last chapter to my editor and will announce that I've finished ADWD.... soon.

5. There is no five.

It is known.

Edit: I'm a Luddite... I lost the rest of my post.

Reposting now faster....

1. Jaime told Ilyn that, in Jaime's mind, Cersei's children were nothing more than the release of sperm.

2. The only way Dany wants to see Jaime is..... roasted by Drogon. It'll take a lot of talking by Varys, Illyrio, Daario, BFS, and Griff plus a dream visitation by Rhaegar's ghost to convince Dany to ally herself with Jaime.

3. Cersei slept with Lancel and Osmund (and Moonboy for all Jaime knows) while Jaime was off fighting the Tullys and Starks. Tyrion used this knowledge (given to him by Varys) to turn Lancel into a double agent against Cersei. Who knew about Cersei and Jaime? Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Bran, Eddard, Stannis, Lancel, and Jon Arryn. Who knows about Cersei and Lancel? Varys, Tyrion, Jaime, and the High Septon. Cersei and Osmund? Tyrion and Jaime... Cersei and Osney? The High Septon... Cersei and Taena? Cersei's liasons seem to be the worst kept secrets in Westeros.

 

[soulsinging]

Well,-

1. I think he's quite indifferent toward his children - I doubt he has feelings for them either way, fond or not.

2. This is an intriguing question. I can't see Jaime aiding Dany, but then not that long ago I couldn't see Jaime doing pretty much anything he did from his capture onward. I like to think that of all his familial ties, it is his bond with Tyrion that is strongest, and that he'd actively work to seek his brother's forgiveness. Switching sides to teh Targs might be the way he does this - but would Dany accept the help of the man who opened her father's throat? DOubtful, I should think. In any case, I can't see him supporting Big Kev for the throne.

1. I partly agree, though there were times it seemed he saw his children more clearly than Cersei ever did... he mentions her babying Tommen, which gave the impression he's not totally disinterested. He just would never stand up to his sister about it. I also think he well knew what a monster Joffrey was and didn't like him at all (likely because he embodied the worst parts of Jaime's own delusionally arrogant youth).

2. I'm not so sure. Given her experiences with Viserys, she knows blood isn't everything. And she's quite savvy as a leader... who better to lend an exiled Targ credibility in Westeros than the Kingslayer himself, from one of its most powerful houses? Sure, Tyrion has more practical value as a politician and whatnot. But Jaime could be the face of the Lannisters by then, and the Kingslayer repenting and embracing a Targ ruler would carry a lot of weight.

 

[Culhwch]

Jaime does seem fairly devoted to his role as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard now. Once before he broke the oath he took when he joined the White Cloaks - does the new Jaime have it in him to do the same again?

 

[Hilarious Joke]

2. The only way Dany wants to see Jaime is..... roasted by Drogon. It'll take a lot of talking by Varys, Illyrio, Daario, BFS, and Griff plus a dream visitation by Rhaegar's ghost to convince Dany to ally herself with Jaime.

Sorry who is Griff?

Cersei and Osney? The High Septon...

How does the High Septon know this?

There seems to be a fair bit of debate about whether Jaime would support Danerys and whether she would have him. But I'm still curious who people think Jaime would want on the throne if not Tommen or Danys?

 

[Boaz]

Cul, I'd like to see him try. I love Jaime... I hope there's a sincere desire to himself and not just his name. If we're to list the foulest of the characters, Jaime is right up there.

SPOILER ALERT

Gregor: Homicide, infanticide, rape, torture, assault, battery, attempted murder, robbery, arson, terrorism, attempted fratricide.... he's done all these multiple times. And he allegedly killed at least one of his wives and allegedly commited patricide.

Sandor: Homicide, treason, oathbreaking, robbery.

Rorge: Homicide, rape, arson, robbery.

Biter: Same as Rorge plus cannibalism.

Euron: Regicide, fratricide, grand theft, treason, terrorism, black sorcery, and he seduced his brother's saltwife.

Some of the nastiest and slimiest characters have sinned on a larger scale.

Roose and Walder: Treason, regicide, and the murder of over two thousand people in one night.

Aerys: Rape (commited against his wife, the Queen), kidnapping, torture, murder, and I assume by association, grand theft by attainder against the deceased. Oh and he also planned to murder ten thousand people the night he died. When Jorah calls Viserys the shadow of a snake, you realize that Viserys' nipple twisting and threatened abortion of Rhaegar's son does not even begin to compare to Aerys' crimes.

Jaime: Regicide (his finest act in his own eyes), multiple homicides, a multitude of treasons, incest, oathbreaking, and twice he attempted infanticide. He also seemed to usually have a contingency plan to murder Robert if the need arose.

Well, there's only two books left that could include Jaime (I'm discounting ADWD) and it's hitting the fan. I don't know how long Jaime and Cersei can last... Cersei's predicament is imminent, but Jaime's seems unescapable also.

 

[devilsgrin]

I think Tyrion is more likely to be the one who places the kings and queens in their places for the game of thrones. He and Littlefinger seem to be the best players.

While i agree on the Littlefinger front... Tyrion is not a great player of the Game by any means. He's definitely clever, and he's certainly "capable" of playing. But he's as crippled in his way as Ned was. Tyrion wants desperately to be loved. Almost all of his actions aside from the purely self-serving and self-preservational are about his need to be loved... by his father mostly, but also by Jaime, ANY woman, Cercei (though he did outgrow this need).
At best, Tyrion would be a very talented behind the scenes player - but always only in a supporting role. His time as proxy-Hand showed us that only his status as Tywin's chosen stand-in gave him ANY power at all. He provokes revulsion in most people. Outright hatred in some, and piteous contempt in others. These are not traits a great player should possess. He has no admirable qualities, aside from all-too brief glimmers of humanity toward Bran and Jon and somewhat to Sansa (by not forcing her)... but to very few others.

As to the question of who Jaime would support, given an opportunity to legitimise an occupant of the Iron Throne with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard's endorsement (and it has happened before in Westeros that Lord Commander's of the Kingsguard were Kingmakers)... i honestly doubt that Jaime would care. Myrcella perhaps might survive the kerfuffle for the throne, but unless something rather miraculous happens, no Lannister is going to be anywhere closer to the Iron Throne than the one in a White Cloak. Tommen, alas, as an enthroned king is doomed. And it really is a tragedy, since we're given nothing but "nice" about the younger twincest spawn.
I could easily see Jaime agreeing to support the King (or Queen) who would guarantee a stable Seven Kingdoms, and a secure one if the threat of the Others materialises (and this is GRRM after all, the whole "Others" thing could be another Red Herring. Perhaps we're not staring down another Long Night, perhaps the Other's know this Winter will be the SHORTEST in history, and that is may be their last chance to triumph).
In all honesty, a Tyrell king would bring the greatest strength of arms, and if the Martell's agree (should Doran's Dany gambit not payoff) a Willas/Arianne or Margeary/Quentin pairing could secure the Kingdoms (At least south of the Neck).

 

[Hilarious Joke]

While i agree on the Littlefinger front... Tyrion is not a great player of the Game by any means. He's definitely clever, and he's certainly "capable" of playing. But he's as crippled in his way as Ned was. Tyrion wants desperately to be loved. Almost all of his actions aside from the purely self-serving and self-preservational are about his need to be loved... by his father mostly, but also by Jaime, ANY woman, Cercei (though he did outgrow this need).
At best, Tyrion would be a very talented behind the scenes player - but always only in a supporting role. His time as proxy-Hand showed us that only his status as Tywin's chosen stand-in gave him ANY power at all. He provokes revulsion in most people. Outright hatred in some, and piteous contempt in others. These are not traits a great player should possess. He has no admirable qualities, aside from all-too brief glimmers of humanity toward Bran and Jon and somewhat to Sansa (by not forcing her)... but to very few others.

Wow! I didn't know there were people that felt this way towards Tyrion (he is surely one of the most popular characters among fans). Of course, majority opinion does not a truth make, and I would agree that Tyrion does have somewhat of a desire to be loved (hence the Shae debacle). But I don't agree that he has no admirable qualities' imho Tyrion, through his intelligence, perseverance and kindness despite all he has suffered and unfairly continues to suffer because of his appearance, is actually one of the most admirable characters in the books.

I could easily see Jaime agreeing to support the King (or Queen) who would guarantee a stable Seven Kingdoms, and a secure one if the threat of the Others materialises (and this is GRRM after all, the whole "Others" thing could be another Red Herring. Perhaps we're not staring down another Long Night, perhaps the Other's know this Winter will be the SHORTEST in history, and that is may be their last chance to triumph).
In all honesty, a Tyrell king would bring the greatest strength of arms, and if the Martell's agree (should Doran's Dany gambit not payoff) a Willas/Arianne or Margeary/Quentin pairing could secure the Kingdoms (At least south of the Neck).

Intriguing! A Tyrell/Martell alliance is something I haven't really considered but it would make sense, what with the Iron Islanders coming up the Reach and King's Landing potentially facing pressure from Daenerys' host.

I've forgotten what Doran had planned for Quentin. Can someone enlighten me? (yes yet ANOTHER question - alright alright I'll reread the books!)

 

[Boaz]

HJ, I think dg meant that Tyrion produces outright revulsion in other characters. We don't really see this much first hand, but it's mentioned. He claims this in his defense at his trial for regicide... people hate him because he's a dwarf. It'll come to the forefront in Tyrion's first ADWD chapter.

dg, great post regarding Tyrion. You've succintly stated what I never could have.

 

[Clansman]

"5 is right out!"

Well, someone had to say it (finally). Strange how most discussions of fantasy eventually come around to Monty Python's Holy Grail.

 

[devilsgrin]

HJ, I think dg meant that Tyrion produces outright revulsion in other characters. We don't really see this much first hand, but it's mentioned. He claims this in his defense at his trial for regicide... people hate him because he's a dwarf. It'll come to the forefront in Tyrion's first ADWD chapter.

dg, great post regarding Tyrion. You've succintly stated what I never could have.

I do have occasional moments on eloquence, thanks Boaz.

and yes i meant Tyrion provokes revulsion, etc in characters/people within Westeros, not the fan-base.

 

[devilsgrin]

But I don't agree that he has no admirable qualities' imho Tyrion, through his intelligence, perseverance and kindness despite all he has suffered and unfairly continues to suffer because of his appearance, is actually one of the most admirable characters in the books.

intelligence and perseverance are all well and good, but its what one does with them that make them admirable ... or not... Tyrion's defenses for the attack on King's Landing were clever, indeed the Myrish (?) Fire on the river was a masterstroke. OF course his cleverness couldn't stop him running his mouth to Cercei and Joffrey... one would think a clever, intelligent person would realise that when dealing with the power hungry and the (almost Targaryen-like) mad, you'd learn to work around, rather than try to push through. In a situation like this... lets use Littlefinger as an example of an alternate approach. He's got FAR less "might" than any Lannister, yet with his cunning he would be able to placate Cercei, distract Joffrey, and quietly redirect the power of the Throne into his own hands. Tyrion could never do this, and thats because of his "issues" as much as his appearance.

Books and Covers, HJ... both the people of Westeros and the people we deal with in the real world LOVE to judge based on covers. And yet personally not being able to "see" the cover of Tyrion, and with deep insight into his motives and personality, i'm anything BUT a fan. His chapters are must-reads, especially during his time in King's Landing. But i find myself sneering at him a lot. People with "Daddy" complexes tend to annoy me... and Tyrion's daddy complex is pretty much front and centre the entire time.

About the only thing i find admirable about Tyrion is that he's still alive. That he's managed to survive so very much speaks well for him... but then, some of the most reprehensible characters in the series have survived far more and for far longer (Lord Walder Frey comes to mind).

 

[C Of K]

Admirable qualities or no, he can be very heroic at times. His efforts at the Battle of the Black water were almost inspiring. I hope there are many more chapters with that twisted little monkey demon in them.

 

[Clansman]

Books and Covers, HJ... both the people of Westeros and the people we deal with in the real world LOVE to judge based on covers. And yet personally not being able to "see" the cover of Tyrion, and with deep insight into his motives and personality, i'm anything BUT a fan. His chapters are must-reads, especially during his time in King's Landing. But i find myself sneering at him a lot. People with "Daddy" complexes tend to annoy me... and Tyrion's daddy complex is pretty much front and centre the entire time.

BIG SPOILER BELOW IF YOU HAVEN'T READ ASOS.

Most people with daddy complexes are pathetic idiots, 'tis true, but if anyone is entitled to have a daddy complex, it is Tyrion. His father actively hates him, and has done since he was an infant. The horrific demise of Tyrion's first marriage orchestrated by Tywin is central in this. If that didn't screw you up for the rest of your life, what would? In fact, all of Tywin's kids are severely screwed up. Incest, murder, patricide (though well-deserved), betrayal, et cetera.... It all gives new meaning to the term "dysfunctional family".

They all belong in a maximum security hospital for the criminally insane.

Especially Tywin.