On Jaime and on rereading the books (SPOILERS)

[The Imp]

Didn't Tywin also send him out on a suicide mission in battle? Not very nice. Sort of cowardly.

Good point. Tywin was clearly willing to let Tyrion and the men under his command die so that the overall battle could be won.

 

[Boaz]

I still don't have any proof, but if Shae was working for Tywin, then she was planted by Bronn... thus Bronn is Tywin's agent. Therefore, in addition to Tyrion commanding Bronn to keep him alive in that battle, Bronn was under orders from Tywin to keep Tyrion alive. (Or conversely, to not help Tyrion. Thus removing Tywin a huge embarassment at no cost or blame to himself.) Plus, I think Tywin constantly pushed Tyrion to see what he was capable of... I know that Tywin despised Tyrion, but he saw that Tyrion was a thinker and a planner. I believe Tywin harrassed Tyrion to bring forth a powerful intellect to assist House Lannister... the Lannisters already abound in money, swords, and power and Tywin's other children seem to not possess any desire to plan and scheme effectively on the grand level. Oh, Cersei thinks she can plot to secure the throne, but we all know her inadequacies. And Jaime only desires to be a swordsman... the greatest swordsman, but still only a man with a sword. Leaving Tyrion to use his brain to keep his older siblings in power, wealth, and swords.

Now as to the crossbow shot... It was murder. It was patricide. It was treason. It was not very noble to shoot an unarmed man on the pot. But could Tyrion claim self-defense?

Tywin denied Tyrion his birthright, Casterly Rock. Tywin spied on Tyrion. Tywin ordered Tysha to be raped by his barracks. Tywin ordered Tyrion's marriage annulled. Tywin left Tyrion exposed in the battle. Tywin repeatedly threatened Tyrion with emotional distress, harming Tyrion's women, and physical abuse. And Tywin showed no hint of fear... Tyrion was absolutely right to fear Tywin, even on the pot.

But in the end, it was murder.

But that does not mean that Tywin should not have seen it coming. How much abuse and disuse could Tyrion take before he snapped? Of course, Tyrion was safely locked away until his scheduled execution in a few hours...

How much remorse will Tyrion feel? He's now killed both of his parents.

 

[Eulalia]

Boaz, the crossbow shot, it was...poetic justice.

And besides, Tyrion told him not to say whore.

Most of the interesting people on Westeros are murderers of some sort. The shorter list would be--who isn't? Loras? Lady Olenna? Littlefinger? The Hound? Arya? Jon? Cersei? Jaime? Catelyn? Melisandre? Ned? Gets pretty messy.

 

[Ursa major]

Boaz, the crossbow shot, it was...poetic justice.

Exactly: Tyrion was already in the process of bolting and there was a quarrel....

 

[The Imp]

Exactly: Tyrion was already in the process of bolting and there was a quarrel....

That's a hilarious joke. ummm, err, pun intended?

Really, seriously, I laughed out loud, which I don't do all that often unless I'm watching Family Guy

 

[Boaz]

Ursa, you're the best.

 

[devilsgrin]

I still don't have any proof, but if Shae was working for Tywin, then she was planted by Bronn... thus Bronn is Tywin's agent. Therefore, in addition to Tyrion commanding Bronn to keep him alive in that battle, Bronn was under orders from Tywin to keep Tyrion alive. (Or conversely, to not help Tyrion. Thus removing Tywin a huge embarassment at no cost or blame to himself.) Plus, I think Tywin constantly pushed Tyrion to see what he was capable of... I know that Tywin despised Tyrion, but he saw that Tyrion was a thinker and a planner. I believe Tywin harrassed Tyrion to bring forth a powerful intellect to assist House Lannister... the Lannisters already abound in money, swords, and power and Tywin's other children seem to not possess any desire to plan and scheme effectively on the grand level. Oh, Cersei thinks she can plot to secure the throne, but we all know her inadequacies. And Jaime only desires to be a swordsman... the greatest swordsman, but still only a man with a sword. Leaving Tyrion to use his brain to keep his older siblings in power, wealth, and swords.

Now as to the crossbow shot... It was murder. It was patricide. It was treason. It was not very noble to shoot an unarmed man on the pot. But could Tyrion claim self-defense?

Tywin denied Tyrion his birthright, Casterly Rock. Tywin spied on Tyrion. Tywin ordered Tysha to be raped by his barracks. Tywin ordered Tyrion's marriage annulled. Tywin left Tyrion exposed in the battle. Tywin repeatedly threatened Tyrion with emotional distress, harming Tyrion's women, and physical abuse. And Tywin showed no hint of fear... Tyrion was absolutely right to fear Tywin, even on the pot.

But in the end, it was murder.

But that does not mean that Tywin should not have seen it coming. How much abuse and disuse could Tyrion take before he snapped? Of course, Tyrion was safely locked away until his scheduled execution in a few hours...

How much remorse will Tyrion feel? He's now killed both of his parents.

i'd agree with this Boaz. Tyrion was most definitely a tool to be used, but one who was only of any value so long as he was useful. Tyrion ceased being useful when he was able to be implicated in the murder of his nephew.
A thought occurs. As much as Tywin knew Tyrion's limitations and was able to effectively predict his moves/thoughts... Varys knew Tywin's inside and out. He had also had enough time to completely understand Tyrion. Since Varys sprang Tyrion from the dungeons, and led him through to the tower of the Hand, knowing Shae was in there (the Spider knows everything afterall)... Varys was effectively removing the strength of House Lannister. With one masterstroke he removed the only player remaining in King's Landing capable of challenging his own prowess. The only player who could have maintained order, and kept the Faith from re-arming. Meaning that even if Varys is not in the city anymore, he doesn't have to worry about a formiddable player disrupting his plans for a Targaryen return to power.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I still don't have any proof, but if Shae was working for Tywin, then she was planted by Bronn... thus Bronn is Tywin's agent.

Despite Bronn's mercenary nature, I would be surprised if he was working for Tywin. And to be honest, a little disappointed! Say what you like about Bronn, but he recognised Tyrion's smarts and was a great ally to have.

A thought occurs. As much as Tywin knew Tyrion's limitations and was able to effectively predict his moves/thoughts... Varys knew Tywin's inside and out. He had also had enough time to completely understand Tyrion. Since Varys sprang Tyrion from the dungeons, and led him through to the tower of the Hand, knowing Shae was in there (the Spider knows everything afterall)... Varys was effectively removing the strength of House Lannister. With one masterstroke he removed the only player remaining in King's Landing capable of challenging his own prowess. The only player who could have maintained order, and kept the Faith from re-arming. Meaning that even if Varys is not in the city anymore, he doesn't have to worry about a formiddable player disrupting his plans for a Targaryen return to power.

I think you might be right! If so, surely Varys has to be one of the best players of the game.

 

[Ursa major]

Really, seriously, I laughed out loud, which I don't do all that often unless I'm watching Family Guy

Glad you liked it.

... err, pun intended?

How can you imply it wasn't a pun, when punning is a major string to my bow, as you know?


Back to the thread (or one of its major diversions):

It's been said that Tyrion is crippled by his need to be loved, whereas the most successful players of the Game are not so hindered. Most of us would agree that Littlefinger is one of the best players, but he also has his issues, particularly with regard to Catelyn and her closest relatives. Has Littlefinger surmounted his obsession, or has it failed to hold him back until now merely because Catelyn (and family) spent so much time in Winterfell (i.e. out of sight and mind)?

 

[The Imp]

Glad you liked it.


How can you imply it wasn't a pun, when punning is a major string to my bow, as you know?


Back to the thread (or one of its major diversions):

It's been said that Tyrion is crippled by his need to be loved, whereas the most successful players of the Game are not so hindered. Most of us would agree that Littlefinger is one of the best players, but he also has his issues, particularly with regard to Catelyn and her closest relatives. Has Littlefinger surmounted his obsession, or has it failed to hold him back until now merely because Catelyn (and family) spent so much time in Winterfell (i.e. out of sight and mind)?

That reference was to me saying hilarious joke

 

[Ursa major]

I know, but I was unable to resist the opportunity to play on your user name and that of our co-Chronner, the Wizard of Wheat Ridge.

 

[devilsgrin]

Glad you liked it.


How can you imply it wasn't a pun, when punning is a major string to my bow, as you know?


Back to the thread (or one of its major diversions):

It's been said that Tyrion is crippled by his need to be loved, whereas the most successful players of the Game are not so hindered. Most of us would agree that Littlefinger is one of the best players, but he also has his issues, particularly with regard to Catelyn and her closest relatives. Has Littlefinger surmounted his obsession, or has it failed to hold him back until now merely because Catelyn (and family) spent so much time in Winterfell (i.e. out of sight and mind)?

I think Littlefinger has used the rejection he was handed by Catelyn as the motivating factor in his life. As opposed to Tyrion, whose issues had hindered him in several ways, Petyr has used his issues to fuel his rise to power. He may have overextended with the Eyrie, but that remains to be seen. At the very least, he is Lord of Harrenhall. And still a member of the Small Council, even though he's in the Vale. A far cry from the skinny, but charismatic kid from the Fingers, who got luckier than he could ever have imagined by being fostered at Riverrun in the first place.
Catelyn's reappearance in his life, and the seeming transferral of his fixation to Sansa, remains to be seen if it will affect his ability to Play the Game. For me, at least intillectually, he sees her as a trophy and a powerful bargaining chip. Like them or not the other Houses of Westeros respect the Stark name. And Petyr surely knows that. Winterfell, once rebuilt, is still the biggest and most impressive Castle in Westeros.
Its possible that subconsciously Petyr wants Sansa to fall desperately in love with him, as he did Catelyn. We'll see. We'll also see whether the amount of Game playing he's teaching her is the amount that she actually learns. She's made mistakes, but Sansa is still an intelligent girl, his fixation could end up with Sansa learning to outPlay him. A Game Master version of Sansa would know all too well the power of her position, and understand how much the beauty she is growing into can be used as her weapon.
Imagine a cross between Cersei (looks as weapons - Sansa saw and realised that power), Catelyn (brains, propriety and understanding of the motivations of others) and Petyr (cunning and ruthless, but never seen or noticed as the instigator) and you've got a very dangerous player.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I think Littlefinger's unrequited feelings for Catelyn have spurred him on rather than hindered him. He knew he didn't (initially) have the money, power, or even physical strength to win Catelyn, so he turned his attention to what he did have: a silver tongue and a brilliant mind.

 

[Boaz]

dg, Varys is on the short list of real players. So he had Tyrion remove Tywin... one of the four great obstacles to a return of Targaryen rule. I'd say the others were Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Eddard Stark. The next obstacles were Stannis Baratheon, Renly Baratheon, and Barristan Selmy. Of those seven, five are dead, Stannis has been diverted, and Barristan has rejoined the Targaryens. The major obstacles to a Targaryen return are the Queen Regent (disgraced and imprisoned), the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (maimed and mistrusted), Mace Tyrell (a former Targaryen loyalist), and Euron Greyjoy (whose power base is far from King's Landing), Littlefinger (whose loyalties are certainly not with the Lannisters, but who has become politically open now that he is more than just the Master of Coin), and Kevan Lannister (he can carry on the fight, but only in a supporting role...).

But did Varys know Jaime would force his hand? He had to have had an immediate getaway plan in place for years, if not decades.

HJ, I think that Bronn found Tyrion quite likeable, but I'll hold to my feeling that he was Tywin's spy until proven otherwise.

And to everyone... As to Lord Baelish... He is a top player. He is well funded. He is highly intelligent. He has consistently planned years in advance of everyone... except mayhaps Varys. He has murdered one King and two Hands. Only Varys matches him in skill, but Varys does not have the power base nor the resources that Baelish possesses. And.... Littlefinger knows all this.

How arrogant will he become? Will he become enamored of his own success and invincibility? When he was Master of Coin, he was a political appointee... seen to be without loyalties, except to Jon Arryn and the Crown. But now he's Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord Protector of the Vale (in effect overlord of two of the Seven Kingdoms). Yet this has brought him out of the shadows... it has shown the great houses that he has ambition. His moves have now publicly declared him as a player.

Varys and Littlefinger had great success in the game because the high and mighty did not see them as players. Littlefinger has lost his air of invisibility...

And... What is he playing at with Sansa? Of course he intends to use Sansa to further his own power base, but what of his personal plans regarding Cat's daughter?

Does he need to work out some unrequited love? Well he had sixteen years to do that with Cat's sister.

Does he want her more than he wants to rule? I doubt that very much.

Does he feel that he needs more vengeance upon Brandon Stark? Mayhaps, but Brandon's dead, Eddard's dead (with much help from Littlefinger), Catelyn's dead, Hoster's dead, Jon Arryn's dead (with a lot of help from Littlefinger)...

When he first met Sansa (or mayhaps it was the second day of the Hand's tourney), he said "Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." He desired to strip away Sansa's illusion from the get go. He is systematically revealing to her that honor and romance are for the weak and the deluded while conversely showing her that he is the smartest and most powerful. He is showing her that power is the only thing that is truly beautiful. Does he plan to try to get her to fall in love with him?

Edit: Ursa, from your last post... I guess you might be a fan of the late, great John Wooden?

 

[Ursa major]

Edit: Ursa, from your last post... I guess you might be a fan of the late, great John Wooden?

Until you mentioned him, his existence was unknown to me.

My main "inspiration" for the remark was the late John Allen, the Wizard of Monterrey (aka The Great Poobah to his friends, so you were lucky I chose the Wizard-based nickname ).

 

[Boaz]

John Wooden's nickname was The Wizard of Westwood. He is the most beloved of American coaches.

So, was Tyrion acting in self-defense? Will Sansa kill Littlefinger or join him? Or shall we get back to Jaime?

 

[devilsgrin]

Jaime is just so limited. He's not a player. His word means very little.

Lets continue with our derailing of the thread.

But just to satisfy a need to briefly return to the OP... I cannot ever see Jaime support a Targaryen return to power. He would almost definitely end up dead if Dany gets the Iron Throne. And she IS mad afterall (delusions of grandeur at the very least). the last thing Westeros needs is another mad targ sovereign.

 

[Eulalia]

Jaime had a very interesting and effective approach with Edmure and the mess he road into.

He turned back and rescued Brienne. He helped Tyrion and told him about Tysha. He cares about the kingsguard book and his place in history. He stopped boinking Cersei.

However, just about everyone hates him.

I wouldn't put it past him to stop the fighting, by crossing the lines and extending a hand to the enemy.

 

[Boaz]

Barristan was able to return to his first allegiance... the Targaryen royal line. He is only one of two of Aerys II's seven to still live. The other is Jaime. I cannot imagine anyone, except for Brienne (pigheaded wench), believing that the Targaryens could ever accept Jaime's allegiance again.

Jaime's life is inextricably tied to Tommen's and Myrcella's. Jaime will do everything in his power to keep them alive. Even if they are killed when he is far away, something tells me that Jaime would try to avenge them rather than face the executioner or take the black. White and gold are his colors.

Jaime's powers and abilities are not, and will never be, those of his father. And now he's crippled. But a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard with his legacy and backed by Lannister gold is not someone to take lightly.

Everyone hates him. No one trusts him. But everyone fears him as well.

It will be interesting to see Jaime try to deal with the monumental problems facing him, his family, and the realm. He must defend the realm from Dany, defend the realm against the Ironborn, free Cersei, suppress the military arms of the Faith, reclaim Myrcella, protect Tommen, defeat Stannis, find the Blackfish, keep the loyalty of the Tyrells, bring back Middlefinger, support the Boltons, deal with the national debt, stamp out brigands, learn how to fight lefthanded, and miraculously defend the realm against a demon.

But he's not up to the task... as if anyone is. Bloodraven, Jon Arryn, and Tywin Lannister might have done it, but they're all dead. Dany will have Jaime hanged, drawn, and quartered... or mayhaps just feed him to her dragons.

 

[TK-421]

Dany's hatred for the usurpers is as strong as King Robert's hatred of Targs. She will not share power. Her predecessors never did.