On Jaime and on rereading the books (SPOILERS)

[NightStalker]

They all belong in a maximum security hospital for the criminally insane.

Especially Tywin.

Well he might be in one. For the criminally insane dead. He would be a pretty mental and pissed off ghost. Think what it'd be like if he found out about Jaime + Cersei .. (iirc he never knew, though I may be wrong.)

 

[devilsgrin]

its never impicitly stated that Tywin "knew" about Jaime and Cersei... but given his efforts to seperate them when they were younger... i suspect he was more than aware...

I didn't say that Tyrion's Daddy complex wasn't justified... but he definitely has one, and its central to his life.

Admirable qualities or no, he can be very heroic at times. His efforts at the Battle of the Black water were almost inspiring. I hope there are many more chapters with that twisted little monkey demon in them.

i don't know if i'd call him heroic... he certainly displayed some courage, but it was the intelligence behind the Battle of Black Water that earns him points. Lets be honest, its only throught sheer blind luck that he was killed (by Ser Meryn Trant iirc), hardly heroic.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I didn't think DG was suggesting that he or the fans find him repulsive, I was more surprised at his comments re Tyrion not having any admirable qualities!

I'd be curious DG to know what you thought of Tyrion killing Tywin? In any case I think there's a difference between us in how we judge characters, you like to see results (which explains why you like Littlefinger - I totally agree that he's a brilliant player of the game) while I care more about motivations - Tyrion made mistakes but tried to do his best to run the Kingdom in a humane way (as far as I can recall) and did not shy away from impossible challenges; so it doesn't matter that he screwed up or that he was mainly ineffectual at the Battle of Black Water, for mine.

 

[The Imp]

i don't know if i'd call him heroic... he certainly displayed some courage, but it was the intelligence behind the Battle of Black Water that earns him points. Lets be honest, its only through sheer blind luck that he wasn't killed (by Ser Mandon Moore), hardly heroic.

I fixed that sentence for you, if that's OK. I got a headache trying to figure it out

I think that Tyrion's actions in the Battle of the Blackwater were extremly courageous. He's literally a half man, can't even walk as other men might, not as strong (despite how most of the world of fantasy portrays Dwarves) and is smart enough to know the ramifications of his actions.

 

[NightStalker]

^^ Haha that really confused me too .. till I scrolled down. >.>

 

[Boaz]

Is this the Tyrion thread or the Jaime thread? No, no, no, don't stop. I like it.

Littlefinger told Eddard that his honor (his need to feel that he's upheld his family name and fulfilled his duty) only weighs him down and makes him predictable. You could say the same thing regarding Tyrion's need for love. His mother died in childbirth, his father blamed him, his sister hated him, his brother let him be his mascot, one uncle played with him, one uncle grudgingly respected his intellect, one nephew despised him, while only Myrcella and Tommen loved him. The one time Tyrion found love outside his immediate family, Tywin and Jaime destroyed it. Tyrion bought women to satify his lust and he escaped from society through his studies. But all in all (even with Myrcella and Tommen seeing him as he truly wants to be seen), this was not enough to satisfy his deep need to be valued.

To Littlefinger, Varys, and Tywin, this made Tyrion utterly predictable. I'm convinced that Shae was working for Tywin. So that when Tywin forbade Tyrion to take her to King's Landing, Tywin knew what Tyrion would do. And in the end, did Tywin hang Shae for sleeping with Tyrion? No. He actually rewarded her by taking her to his own bed.

 

[C Of K]

Despite all Tyrion's issues, he inspired others to follow him into battle, even as the Hound fled with his tail between his legs. There is much to be said about that, I think. If none of the other characters will admit to Tyrion's heroism, certainly Podrick Payne would.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I don't know how much discretion the OP has in this matter, but I'm happy for this thread to be sidetracked as much as possible.

On that note, I need some more substantial proof on how Tyrion was predictable because of his need to be loved! Surely his strategies for Blackwater weren't predictable!

 

[devilsgrin]

thanks for the ammendment Imp... obviously i didn't recall correctly on that one...

HJ... Tyrion's killing of Tywin (whilst in some ways justified) was done in an extremely cowardly fashion. A crossbow whilst he was taking a dump? C.O.W.A.R.D. Of course considering his disabilies, only in such a low way could he have taken Tywin out.
Tywin most definitely deserved to die, and even by Tyrion's hand, yet it was not only cowardly, but Tyrion (according to Westerosi superstition) is now a cursed kinslayer.
When the Greater Good is concerned HJ, it is ONLY results that matter. Good Intentions don't put roofs over heads, keep people safe in their beds, or food in their stomachs. Tywin was a BRILLIANT Hand of the King. Do not forget that Westeros' current prosperity owes much to Tywin's time as Aerys' hand. it was his tenure as Hand that deflected so much of Aerys' madness from affecting the wider population, of course Aerys eventually betrayed Tywin, so the proverbial hit the fan once Tywin returned to Casterly Rock. He wasn't necessarily well "liked" but he was most definitely feared and undeniably respected (indeed he was so DAMN good Aerys was afraid of him, and majorly jealous).
I didn't say that Tyrion had NO admirable qualities... just that the bad ones were too overpowering for them to affect my overall opinion of him... as clearly they do for the majority of the citizens of Westeros.

I agree with Boaz on the predicability front. Tywin knew EXACTLY how Tyrion would perform. He knew he'd disobey and take Shae with him to King's Landing, and he knew Tyrion's formiddable intillect would be used in a way that helped stabilise a chaotic situation in King's Landing. Only Tywin himself could have done a better job. The brilliance of Tyrion's Chain and Fire plan was less predictable, but Tyrion's ability to make daring plans/think outside the box was likely predictable and factored into Tywin's decision to send him there in his stead.
I don't think theres much question about Shae being in Tywin's pocket. At the least. She was also very likely one of Varys' sparrows.
HJ when someone has such an obvious weakness, predicting their motives, and their actions is relatively easy. And consider people like Littlefinger and Tywin are experts at reading people. Tywin knew his son's flaws better than anyone (whilst admittedly underestimating some of Tyrion's strengths). Tywin knew Tyrion would seek his approval by doing the very best he could in the Hand's role.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Okay, since I love me a numbered list, I reply with three points:

1. To be honest, when it comes to Tywin's death, I think Tyrion would have been more of a coward if he didn't pull the trigger. By doing so, he was finally dealing with the epitome of all the problems in his life. He was finally stepping up and taking proper control of his own fate. As for the circumstances, as you say it was the only real way he could have done so considering his disability. You also say Tywin definitely deserved to die. So I don't really see how you can fault Tyrion for killing Tywin the way he did, unless your faulting him for his disability. Tywin certainly didn't deserve more than he got.

2. You're undoubtedly a realist, whereas I'm an idealist. My thought is that good intentions plus action that serves those intentions makes a character worthy of my respect and admiration, no matter the outcome of that action.

3. I will agree that Tywin completely manipulated Tyrion. Still, he paid the ultimate price for it in the end. Of course, for one such as myself, this is just an example of how good must triumph over evil .

 

[devilsgrin]

1. Honestly i don't see Tyrion's killing of Tywin as resolving anything in terms of the problems of his life. On the contrary, he put himself in a position where no matter what he does, he will now NEVER have the respect and/or love of the person he wants it most from. Tyrion could have shown that he was the bigger man (no pun intended) by walking away and proving that he didn't need Tywin to succeed (which remains to be seen - whether Tyrion can be anyone without the backing of the Lannister name and power). Tywin's deserving of death is not in question, and Tyrion did have more cause than most. Its a complex situation. I don't fault him for his disability. but its still a cowardly way to kill.

2. i would love to be able to point to anyone whose good intentions worked out well in the real world, or even in the more realistic fiction. alas its all too few and far between. I agree i AM a realist. which perhaps explains why i read fantasy... to balance out almost brutal realism with which i view things. Try and fail with good intentions, you might get a pat on the back, (unless fail = dead). Try and succeed with good results, regardless of intentions, you get cheered.

3. Good ultimately looses, since evil doesn't play fair. (odd that i read fantasy, where good almost always wins) Also i wouldn't count Tywin as evil. brutally pragmatic certainly, evil, no.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

1. For mine, if Tyrion did have as you described 'a daddy complex' then he comprehensively overcame it by killing Tywin. I am pleased that despite Tyrion's exiled status, he is finally free of the scheming and the consequences of being a Lannister that almost killed him. In any case, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here!

2. I don't know, I think it was on the basis of good intentions that slavery ended, racism was outlawed, women got the vote, and social welfare was instituted. But I guess your view is that in the big picture, these things were as you say few and far between. Which is a fair enough attitude to take. I suppose I just place great stock in people believing in and working towards 'noble' (for want of a better word) goals.

3. Argh! But ultimately evil loses because it's self-serving and people need each other to succeed and prosper and be happy! I'd count Tywin as evil because of his basic disregard for human life.

 

[Boaz]

I don't know that murdering Tywin solved any issues for Tyrion, but since he was already found guilty of kinslaying and condemned to die on the morrow, believed to be inept with weapons, had just murdered his lady love in his father's bed, and thought to be easily cowed by Tywin I think Tyrion thought it a very good idea to squeeze the trigger at that moment.

 

[digs]

I think Tywin's shadow is going to hang over Tyrion for a looooong time - the rest of his life, probably. It's too simple to kill him and have all those echoes of psychological trauma just disappear. I don't have anything to base this on, but I get the sense that Tyrion's forever going to be this tragic figure who can't ever really find the peace that he really deserves. Maybe because it seems like GRRM has such an awesome time torturing him.

I'm really interested to see where Jaime will fall once Dany and her dragons come home. I was about to say it would be too abrupt if Dany immediately executed him, but then I remembered which author we're talking about...

 

[Clansman]

1. Honestly i don't see Tyrion's killing of Tywin as resolving anything in terms of the problems of his life. On the contrary, he put himself in a position where no matter what he does, he will now NEVER have the respect and/or love of the person he wants it most from. Tyrion could have shown that he was the bigger man (no pun intended) by walking away and proving that he didn't need Tywin to succeed (which remains to be seen - whether Tyrion can be anyone without the backing of the Lannister name and power). Tywin's deserving of death is not in question, and Tyrion did have more cause than most. Its a complex situation. I don't fault him for his disability. but its still a cowardly way to kill.

Cold-blooded murder is cold-blooded murder. It does not matter how it is done, as "honour" or "cowardice" never figure in it, and Tyrion never pretended to care a whit about honour. He killed Tywin the only way it could be done (and aren't you glad Tywin's dead?). Even without a disability, any power he did have had been stripped from him by the false accusation about Joffrey's death. To kill Tywin, he'd have to sneak around and wait for his chance to off his b*****d (in the pejorative, not literal, sense) of a father, regardless of his physical limitations.

It undoubtedly took nerve to sneak through the passages and wait for his opportunity, and to kill his own father. Murder, by its very nature, is an act of utter immorality, which can take a great deal of bravery for one with a character like Tyrion's. He damaged his own soul in the process, undoubtedly.

 

[soulsinging]

Tyrion's killing of Tywin (whilst in some ways justified) was done in an extremely cowardly fashion. A crossbow whilst he was taking a dump? C.O.W.A.R.D. Of course considering his disabilies, only in such a low way could he have taken Tywin out.

I see nothing cowardly about it, unless you're as uptight as Eddard Stark, hehe. I don't think anyone would call modern spec forces commandos cowards, but I suspect they do things like this all the time and would approve exactly this approach without hesitation. Hit your enemy with surprise and when they're most vulnerable and you are strongest. It still takes some serious stones to be alone in a hostile environment taking on a vastly stronger enemy. Tywin stood a fair chance of jumping off the pot and disarming Tyrion... it was only the shock of the situation that kept him frozen. Tyrion played it smart and took down his enemy efficiently and in a way that assured success. Not every fight has to be two knights with equal armor squaring off to be brave.

I'm surprised someone who claims to be such a brutal realist would have such saintly notions on cowardice and bravery

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I see nothing cowardly about it, unless you're as uptight as Eddard Stark, hehe. I don't think anyone would call modern spec forces commandos cowards, but I suspect they do things like this all the time and would approve exactly this approach without hesitation. Hit your enemy with surprise and when they're most vulnerable and you are strongest. It still takes some serious stones to be alone in a hostile environment taking on a vastly stronger enemy. Tywin stood a fair chance of jumping off the pot and disarming Tyrion... it was only the shock of the situation that kept him frozen. Tyrion played it smart and took down his enemy efficiently and in a way that assured success. Not every fight has to be two knights with equal armor squaring off to be brave.

I'm surprised someone who claims to be such a brutal realist would have such saintly notions on cowardice and bravery

Someone has been reading the Art of War i see All true points, starting with Eddard.

 

[Eulalia]

I don't know, but, I consider the Tywin incident justifiable in the context of the book.

I would have enough confidence in Tyrion's morality, in Westeros, that I would let him babysit my kids. Too bad he didn't have control of Joffrey earlier, or was Jon's mentor at an earlier age.

If I were a character in Westeros, I would definitely sleep with him. He sounds like he is funny, immoral in the right ways, conscientious in the right ways(Sansa) and active. Betraying him with his father, and humiliating him in a courtroom, where you helped convict him or murder, though, would not go well.

He has shown outstanding kindness, wit, creativity, courage, humour, trustworthiness, humility and loyalty, unless crossed beyond the pale. Even Catelyn was starting to trust him by the end. Wouldn't you like to have him as a friend, or ally, if you were not planning to heartlessly betray him?

This is also a world where murder is rather commonplace. Reading a book is not. A man who reads!

 

[The Imp]

thanks for the ammendment Imp... obviously i didn't recall correctly on that one...

HJ... Tyrion's killing of Tywin (whilst in some ways justified) was done in an extremely cowardly fashion. A crossbow whilst he was taking a dump? C.O.W.A.R.D. Of course considering his disabilies, only in such a low way could he have taken Tywin out.
Tywin most definitely deserved to die, and even by Tyrion's hand, yet it was not only cowardly, but Tyrion (according to Westerosi superstition) is now a cursed kinslayer.

I don't think Tyrion shooting Tywin with the crossbow was as much and act of cowardice as it was one of extreme passion. He had just found out the truth about Tysha from Jaime. He had just discovered that his father was sleeping with his whore. This was the same man who was the "moral pillar' of the family, the one who humiliated him when he was a boy by making him watch while numerous men had their way with the woman Tywin had falsely named as a whore, and then in a final humiliation, told him to do bed her as well, something he didn't have the strength to refuse. The blatant hypocrisy of Tywin bedding Shae, whom he wouldn't even allow Tyrion to bring to king's landing, coupled with The truth about Tysha clearly made Tyrion snap. The final insult was Tywin saying he was still sending him to the Wall. It could have been a mace, or a large spoon (for any Seinfeld fans out there), or it could have been his own hands. Tywin was losing his life and I don't see using the crossbow as the act of a coward.

 

[Eulalia]

Didn't Tywin also send him out on a suicide mission in battle? Not very nice. Sort of cowardly.