On Jaime and on rereading the books (SPOILERS)

Thanks guys for the great posts! In the spirit of derailing that this thread seems to embody (which I'm quite happy about) I'd like to say a couple of things on Danys.

But just to satisfy a need to briefly return to the OP... I cannot ever see Jaime support a Targaryen return to power. He would almost definitely end up dead if Dany gets the Iron Throne. And she IS mad afterall (delusions of grandeur at the very least). the last thing Westeros needs is another mad targ sovereign.
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I hope you don't feel like I'm taking exception with everything you say DG, but I really don't see Danys as mad as all - I actually see her as amazingly rational. I certainly don't think she has delusions of grandeur - she's come from nothing to now have an incredibly powerful and disciplined army in the Unsullied, a large number of mercenaries, her loyal bloodriders, BFS, and most importantly, three dragons. If anyone has the potential to conquer and unite all of Westeros it must be Danys.

Dany's hatred for the usurpers is as strong as King Robert's hatred of Targs. She will not share power. Her predecessors never did.
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I will be surprised if Danys doesn't end up 'sharing power' with and marrying Jon Snow.
 
Hilarious Joke said:
I will be surprised if Danys doesn't end up 'sharing power' with and marrying Jon Snow.
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SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER (if you haven't read AGoT, you shouldn't be here anyway).













I was surprised when Ned Stark's head rolled across the court yard after Mr. Payne hacked it off...

Just sayin'.
 
Hilarious Joke said:
Thanks guys for the great posts! In the spirit of derailing that this thread seems to embody (which I'm quite happy about) I'd like to say a couple of things on Danys.



I hope you don't feel like I'm taking exception with everything you say DG, but I really don't see Danys as mad as all - I actually see her as amazingly rational. I certainly don't think she has delusions of grandeur - she's come from nothing to now have an incredibly powerful and disciplined army in the Unsullied, a large number of mercenaries, her loyal bloodriders, BFS, and most importantly, three dragons. If anyone has the potential to conquer and unite all of Westeros it must be Danys.



I will be surprised if Danys doesn't end up 'sharing power' with and marrying Jon Snow.
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don't warry HJ... it only looks like your taking exception with everything i say... because you are... lol.
She's definitely mad. Even BFS is reserving his judgement about her sanity. Its her misguided belief that she "Deserves" all that she has through being some sort of semi-divine "special" person (Blood of the Dragon???) that makes her mad. She's as mad as Viserys was. She's just prettier so people forgive her... for now, from what is said, most Targs are at least reasonably attractive... even Aerys would have been... but it didn't save him in the long run. And it won't save a barren princess either.
I certainly didn't say she didn't have the power to conquor Westeros... tho getting to Westeros seems to be her major stumbling block... but Conquorers and The Sane aren't often the same people. they always seem to have some major psychological issues... delusions of grandeur being foremost of those issues. Megalomania being another... and from what I get out of the preview chapters, thats quite possibly settling in.
 
Your conclusions are always well founded, Devilsgrin. I can see why BFS has reserved judgment of her, though. On the one hand, there is the whole blood of the dragon thing going on with her, by which she pursues power strictly based on her lineage and not her strength of character. On the other hand, circumstances have seen her wed and widowed by Kal Drogo, which left her (a thirteen year old child, who never had the benefits of a good upbringing) with only three real choices that I can see.

1. Go live with, and like, a bunch of women that are probably 60 years her senior, in a less than comfortable environment.

2. Escape everyone and everything, alone, across the desert, during which she would surely perish one way or another.

3. Attempt to ensure her people a future by giving them a purpose, jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan, in an attempt to conquer Westeros.

It's really hard for me to decide how mad she really is, whereas it was easy to judge Visarys'...illness? He made his own bed, and dug his own grave. He did not have to seek vengeance and power, but his madness has put Dany in a predicament that forced her to choose between one mad course and another.

I think BFS realizes much of this, and so bides his time in judging whether she is really a monster or not. I do think there is madness there, though. Too much has happened to her, and especially for such a young person. Who wouldn't be mad in her shoes? By all appearances she's holding up better than anyone has a right to.
 
I just wanna throw this out there: maybe, to want (and get) that kind of power, you have to be at least a little bit mad. You need to be completely fixated on that one goal and utterly ruthless in achieving it. For Dany it's an obsession, to the point where I feel that if she ever does conquer and unite Westeros, her life (in her own eyes) could cease to have any purpose or meaning. She's not a full-on lunatic (that we've seen) but I think there's a bit of craze there.
 
Digs, i'll agree. there is mad and then theres Mad. Dany may not yet be Mad, but theres certainly mad in the mix already.
Agreed CofK, at her age, with all she's been through, she's not likely to survive with her sanity completely intact (or at all intact - as the case may or may not be).

Viserys, i actually feel a little sorry for. He was Illario's little puppet for so long, literally used as a side-show curiosity for the merchant's friends to "oooh, the last dragon... aaahh" over. and then when Dany finally matured enough to be useful as a piece (of meat/play-thing), he got sidelined completely. He'd spent his whole life (from what 9 years old?) fixated on regaining his father's throne, being brainwashed essentially into thinking he would end up being the King of the Seven Kingdoms some day... that to be "crowned" in the method that he was, was (typical of George RR at least) utterly ruthless, brutal and almost (as a character in the story) callous in the extreme. there is no question he was Mad. none whatsoever... but i can't help but feel a little bit sorry for him. The worst part was Dany's reaction. Not One shred of remorse for him. nothing. yes he'd tormented her, but he was even still her Only friend, and her only family left. Any emotion she may have felt, George was unable to convey properly. Or chose not to.
 
Now you've gone and made me feel sorry for him, and I DON'T want to feel sorry for him. Ah, well, he never said anything for which I didn't get the urge to strike him down, but I've never hated anyone forever. I can only maintain that level of emotion while I read AGOT.
 
Viserys is certainly NOT a character who is easily liked. But having seen the real world effects of serious psychological trauma on children, i can't hate him. He's horrible, mad and a bit of a monster and could very easily have been exactly like Aerys on the throne, but i can't actually say i hate him.
 
I can understand that. I end up hating him every time I read about him, though. I can't help it. I can never imagine treating my little sister the way he treats Dany. He and I are complete polar opposites where such matters are concerned.
 
As far as i can tell, Viserys is "pornography". He has no redeeming social value. As I'm writing this i'm trying to think of charcters in ASOIAF that might be more despicable. It's really tough. Vargo Hoat, Roose Bolton, Joffrey and Gregor all come to mind, but in a series with so many characters, Viserys' certainly towers above most
 
Perhaps GRRM is still doing some coin flipping.

I think given her background, Dany is the Rock of Gibralter. But she has her blindspots, and I think, as many do here, that she has the potential to be really nuts.

In this world, to be Mad, mental health people would be looking for hallucinations (I suppose she has had them?? but weren't they drug induced?) both auditory and visual, word salads (no), feelings of persecution (no that was Jory and the attempted assassinations were real), and grandiosity is only one aspect. I must say, I've known a few people who were only garden variety narcissists and were strongly grandiose but not Mad. There are quite a few in the news.Sometimes they make lots of money or become influential in political parties.

If one were actually deposed royalty, wife of a Khal at 13, and the subject of prophecies that seemed to come true, in a world where prophecies were to be taken most seriously, I had smothered my husband, seen my abusive brother die horribly, had a miscarriage, been a target for assassinations, caused people's lives to be saved, created an army of Unsullied and wretched of the earth, had walked through fire and survived and was the mother and nurse to three "real" dragons, it might make me feel a little special. I would wonder about my destiny. How many people say they are born for a reason, though?

Cersei, on the other hand, does seem further along on the delusional scale. Patchface is pretty far gone. Damphair is getting there. And the Uncat is...

Anyway, Jaime seems fairly sane and is becoming more aware of Cersei's state of mind.
 
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Eulalia said:
Perhaps GRRM is still doing some coin flipping.

I think given her background, Dany is the Rock of Gibralter. But she has her blindspots, and I think, as many do here, that she has the potential to be really nuts.

In this world, to be Mad, mental health people would be looking for hallucinations (I suppose she has had them?? but weren't they drug induced?) both auditory and visual, word salads (no), feelings of persecution (no that was Jory and the attempted assassinations were real), and grandiosity is only one aspect. I must say, I've known a few people who were only garden variety narcissists and were strongly grandiose but not Mad. There are quite a few in the news.Sometimes they make lots of money or become influential in political parties.

If one were actually deposed royalty, wife of a Khal at 13, and the subject of prophecies that seemed to come true, in a world where prophecies were to be taken most seriously, I had smothered my husband, seen my abusive brother die horribly, had a miscarriage, been a target for assassinations, caused people's lives to be saved, created an army of Unsullied and wretched of the earth, had walked through fire and survived and was the mother and nurse to three "real" dragons, it might make me feel a little special. I would wonder about my destiny. How many people say they are born for a reason, though?

Cersei, on the other hand, does seem further along on the delusional scale. Patchface is pretty far gone. Damphair is getting there. And the Uncat is...

Anyway, Jaime seems fairly sane and is becoming more aware of Cersei's state of mind.
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Dany has always seemed fairly sane to me, given what she has gone through. I don't detect in her any of the symptoms that i would associate with mental illness, and you did a fine job of listing them btw :)

Although I don't think it will happen, Tyrion certainly has the potential to go off the deep end, given his alchoholism and recent patricide. Arya is already well on her way to being a full blown sociopath, err, wait, we're not allowed to call kids that, right? She's troubled. Theon is clearly very crazy,

WHat were we talking about again? :D
 
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