Writing Challenge Discussion -- January 2011

[TheDustyZebra]

Some of you may have heard of Little Rock because it's where President Clinton was from, if not from the other historical references. If you haven't heard of President Clinton either, thank your lucky stars.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I don't see how it prevents a story from standing on its own if an unknown word or phrase is explained, Mosaix. It's still the story that has to impress people. I knew of the events of the story as they were happening, and probably know more of the history surrounding that incident (far more than is included in that wikipedia article) being an American and the right age, but that isn't going to influence me to vote for your story if I think there is a story that is better written.

Explaining what a story means is a different matter entirely, and we have asked people not to do that until after the voting. Perhaps it is time for a reminder.

However, as an American, a lot of things that turn up in the stories here, things that are blatantly familiar to those of you in the UK, are completely lost on me -- things that people take completely for granted, but the conversations about them totally leave out those of us who were born elsewhere. Ursa's puns can be particularly hard, because without knowing the original phrase he is playing with there is no way to look it up.

We are an international forum, and we all bring our own personal backgrounds to interpreting a story. I don't see anything wrong with enriching the experience of the Challenge by sharing what we know based on those different backgrounds. I also think the conversations here should be inclusive, and people shouldn't feel left out because of their ages or nationalities.

But I will remember that you don't like that to be applied to your own stories, and I won't do it again.

 

[J Riff]

It changes nothing here- it's the story not the historical context.
It is interesting to denote the line- between phrases and sayings that are uniquely English or American... for ex: we have a ton of English slang in use here- but we still can't say Blimey! Not convincingly anyway.. nor can we believably say 'chuffed'.

 

[Ursa major]

If it makes you feel any better, Teresa, I suspect that a good many of my puns are thought obscure by everyone (give or take yours truly), wherever they happen to live and whatever their specific cultural heritage.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

There was one story, Ursa, where you were apparently referring to English cities, or counties, or districts, or ... something. I didn't even know that much until somebody else made a remark, and I was still lost. There may have been other references that I didn't even know I was missing. In short, the entire story was gibberish to me, although others were laughing at it.

 

[mosaix]

I don't see how it prevents a story from standing on its own if an unknown word or phrase is explained, Mosaix.

I would agree Teresa, except for the unique quality of the Challenge itself, that the story should be told in 75 words, not 75 words and some explanatory notes. When we are limited in the number of words then the individual words themselves attract almost as much importance as the story they are telling. Using an unknown word (maybe to get inside the 75 word limit) then having it explained elsewhere seems, somehow, to be against the spirit of the Challenge.

We are an international forum, and we all bring our own personal backgrounds to interpreting a story. I don't see anything wrong with enriching the experience of the Challenge by sharing what we know based on those different backgrounds. I also think the conversations here should be inclusive, and people shouldn't feel left out because of their ages or nationalities.

I agree, but all of that can happen after the voting has taken place. In my view, the first and fundamental quality of any writing should be that it is understood by its target audience. In the case of the Challenge the target audience are the members of the Chrons - an international forum as you say - and authors should take that into account when writing their stories and accept the consequences if they choose to include information that might not be understood internationally.

 

[digs]

I just hoped that the 'younger' Chrons members may have been taught about Little Rock in school.

I know a little bit of American history, but we never did any at all in school.

mosaix, at first I understood why you wouldn't have wanted TE to post the link - then I thought, what's the difference (in terms of the story's emotional impact) between previously knowing the significance of Little Rock and finding out afterward? In my mind there's none. Even if TE hadn't posted the link I'd have gone and found it myself. And if your story's encouraging people to go find out about some key event that they'd previously been ignorant of, that can only be a good thing.

Edit:

I agree, but all of that can happen after the voting has taken place. In my view, the first and fundamental quality of any writing should be that it is understood by its target audience. In the case of the Challenge the target audience are the members of the Chrons - an international forum as you say - and authors should take that into account when writing their stories and accept the consequences if they choose to include information that might not be understood internationally.

I wanted to add that we're also a web-based audience, and pretty likely to have Wikipedia booklisted ourselves anyway

 

[mosaix]

I know a little bit of American history, but we never did any at all in school.

mosaix, at first I understood why you wouldn't have wanted TE to post the link - then I thought, what's the difference (in terms of the story's emotional impact) between previously knowing the significance of Little Rock and finding out afterward? In my mind there's none. Even if TE hadn't posted the link I'd have gone and found it myself. And if your story's encouraging people to go find out about some key event that they'd previously been ignorant of, that can only be a good thing.

I understand what you are saying, Digs and, to be honest, I find it difficult to address the points that you make.

Perhaps if I explain it like this: I think a 75 word story that is completely understandable within the 75 words should be judged more advantageously that one that isn't.

I took a risk with my story this month and I expected to suffer in the voting because of that. But I enjoyed writing the story and I hoped that more readers would understand it than not.

Anyway, enough of this. I suppose, in the final analysis, it's all down to how we vote as individuals.

I don't propose to say any more on the subject.

Back to the discussion of the stories...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I agree, but all of that can happen after the voting has taken place.

Except that after the voting a new batch of stories starts to appear and thoughts are directed elsewhere. Questions that people might have wanted to ask are forgotten, or get lost as the discussions ramble off on one tangent after another, entirely unrelated to the stories. (Which is something I deplore; nevertheless, it happens.)

In my view, the first and fundamental quality of any writing should be that it is understood by its target audience.

But isn't that why we study literature in school: so that we may learn to appreciate stories we would never otherwise have read, let alone grasped? Is anyone here part of Shakespeare's target audience, or Chaucer's? Was their artistry any less if we can't understand their works without some explanations as to the language or the times when they were written? Should a drama like "Antigone" be lost to those of us who don't happen to be fluent in Ancient Greek and can only read the play with a translator acting as intermediary? Are their stories failures because we haven't the reference points to understand them, or is it the case that we become something more than we were before when we are given the opportunity to read and comprehend them?

And do we not, by learning more, become the target audience for more diverse forms of literature?

For your own stories I will honor your wishes. It's not necessary for me to agree with you in order to do that, because they are your stories. I apologize that I didn't know what those wishes were before. Perhaps for the future people need to announce in advance that they don't want anyone to explain any obscure words or references in their stories. But I am not going to curtail that sort of discussion in regard to other stories so long as people feel they derive benefits from the information, beyond what they take from the Challenge itself.

(And at the very least, these discussions encourage people to talk about the stories, instead of turning this into a chat thread.)


Edit -- You posted while I was still composing this message, Mosaix. As I grow older, it takes me longer and longer to choose the words to convey my thoughts. Or maybe I'm just fussier about what I say. Or both. Anyway, I didn't mean to revive a topic you no longer wanted to discuss.

 

[Precise Calibre]

It's my belief that if a person wants to know the nuances and tricks within a work they can either figure it out for themselves or ask the author, publicly or in private, what the idea behind the piece. It's up to the author to decide whether or not they want to withdraw the veil then.

I personally have been messaged on several occasions asking for a clarification or explanation of several of my entries. To me, this is a good thing; it means my piece actually made someone use that thing between their ears - always a good thing

 

[J Riff]

Explain your 75-word story in 5000 wds. or less.

 

[Mouse]

Blimey, this is all getting a bit serious idden it? I thought the challenge was supposed to be fun!

Teresa, I didn't understand Ursa's story about UK cities/places either. I really don't think it matters how old you are or where you're from, you either know about something or you don't.

The 'target audience' thing is interesting... whoever said about that. I work with Americans, 90% of the things I've had published has been published in the American market, so I tend to write things that would be understood by everyone (and also I'm not clever enough to do the tricksy things!).

As for Googling/Wiki-ing stories, I usually don't. Just because I'm a lazy, lazy arse.

Back to 'Revolution' I still have no other ideas. So I reckon I'm going to be posting one of my two crappy ones or none at all.

Fitzchivalry's story... nice.

 

[sloweye]

I like to write my story so anyone can read it and understand it, that way i don't have to explain it and no-one feels stupid for having to ask. But thats just me, i'm simple and so are my stories.

 

[nixie]

I like to write my story so anyone can read it and understand it, that way i don't have to explain it and no-one feels stupid for having to ask. But thats just me, i'm simple and so are my stories.

Snap...

Also I do think we all need to remember that the 75 word challenge is a bit of fun that may help people with their writing skills. A little clarification on a title is fine but if we need to start explaining the stories before the challenge is over its taking away part of the fun. My perspective when voting is, did I enjoy it?

 

[sloweye]

To be honest thats what i feel, i though they should read like a story. sometimes it seems to me the story is only hinted at, like a list of words that you have to fill the gaps between for yourself... but like i say, i'm a little slow in the head compared to everyone else on the site.

 

[nixie]

SLAP.... Karn and Mouse don't get away with it so you aren't either

 

[sloweye]

But i am and i have a doctors note to prove it

 

[paranoid marvin]

This thread is for discussions on the writing challenge thread , so personally I see no reason why entries shouldn't be discussed.If a member wishes to ask an entrant to elaborate a little more on the context of their entry , then it is up to the individual whether or not they wish to do so. By making an entry a little obscure , it goes without saying that the entrant runs the risk of losing some votes , but then again at the end of the day it's more about the taking part than the winning that's important (to me at least!)​

And I agree with the above comments , I don't find 75 words enough to tell any story satisfactoraly, (although there are others on this forum who are able to do so admirably well) They can , however, be sufficient to etch an outline, for the reader to paint the picture with the colours of their own choosing.​

 

[sloweye]

And I agree with the above comments , I don't find 75 words enough to tell any story satisfactoraly, (although there are others on this forum who are able to do so admirably well) They can , however, be sufficient to etch an outline, for the reader to paint the picture with the colours of their own choosing.

But surely that is the challange, to write a story in 75 words, at least thats how i understood it from the rules (see quote below). To etch an outline for the reader to fill in the gaps is in contradiction. you have to understand, i'm not pointing fingers or trying to put people to shame as such.
And i've said before i think, my taking part is purly an exorcise to make me think and to aid in my quest to beat my reading/writing (mostly spelling) problems, not for personal glory, i'd still take part even if there was no voting at the end

RULES:​

Write a story inspired by the chosen theme in no more than 75 words
The title is not part of the word count -- or the story
It should be a story, not simply description
It can be prose or poetry
One entry per person
All stories Copyright 2010 by their respective authors, who grant the Chronicles Network the non-exclusive right to publish them here.​

 

[Ursa major]

By making an entry a little obscure, it goes without saying that the entrant runs the risk of losing some votes....

I kick myself for doing so every month (just after the results of the voting are declared ).

To be a little more serious: I thought that while an author should not be unnecessarily obscure, stretching the reader ought not to be frowned upon. And let's face it, many challenge entries over the months have alluded to other, better known** stories. While the entry itself ought to stand on its own feet (even if it's prose ), knowledge of the referenced story could give increased pleasure, giving a far richer experience. While I wouldn't claim wordplay does this, it can add another (though different) dimension to a story.



** - Although not always known to me, not without a bit of effort on my part (i.e. thinking).