Writing Challenge Discussion -- January 2011

[mosaix]

Anyway, I didn't mean to revive a topic you no longer wanted to discuss.

I realised that was what had happened.

Also my original post on this matter, where I quoted you, now seems a little brusque and for that I apologise.

 

[J Riff]

FWIW, I thinks that part of the challenge is making the story clear enough so one doesn't have to google anything to find out what's what.
For ex. I had forgotten the specific incident that Mosaix used, but t'dint matter- it was abundantly clear what was going on.
Some of the mythological or ...whatever-based stories get past..I simply don't have the greek legends handy in my tiny brain anymore, if I ever did, so these stories can slide by someone like me who is probably as lazy as Mouse, no I take that back.

 

[sloweye]

You see, those things don't bother me. People will always write about the thing they know, and things like that i dont mind looking up. as long as it reads as a story its fine. It's the ones that are outlines of stories i find difficult understand as they bypass the whole point of the challenge. (IMO)

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

On a semi legal note:

Should/could those with the Power of Grey-skull change the 2010 to 2011?

I have to come down on the 75 words and that's all the chance you get. Any deeper discussions/explanations can be can be opened after the end of the month.

As I said at the time I thought Mosaix's tale stood out.

In fact, I thought it was addressing the situation in US schools at the moment.

 

[R M Tobias]

FWIW, I thinks that part of the challenge is making the story clear enough so one doesn't have to google anything to find out what's what.
For ex. I had forgotten the specific incident that Mosaix used, but t'dint matter- it was abundantly clear what was going on.
Some of the mythological or ...whatever-based stories get past..I simply don't have the greek legends handy in my tiny brain anymore, if I ever did, so these stories can slide by someone like me who is probably as lazy as Mouse, no I take that back.

You can watch and enjoy 'Oh brother where art though,' without having read Homer's Odyssey, Star Wars without having read Joseph Campbell.

I don't get it. Perhaps you can use an example of where someone on the chrons has used

mythological or ...whatever-based

influences to make a story in which it is not abundantly clear what is going on.

 

[J Riff]

No crit of anyone.. but a lot of the stuff one runs into - and I mean long trilogies or what have-you, can be based on existing mythology that is unknown to the reader. Where's the line- who knows? King Arthur is known to almost everyone but mention of say, Beowulf, may confuse many. So literary references are hit-and-miss, more so because of the international variety in here. I wasn't sure what a mini-roundabout was, someone else may not know who Ionic was, or what a BagPuss is.
So if the idea is to win, which it isn't really- consideration of the wide range of readership would be a factor.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

So if the idea is to win, which it isn't really

Correct. It's about creativity and fun and the shared experience. As I've said from the time when I first initiated the competition, everyone who meets the challenge by writing a story gains a victory, whether they win that month or receive no votes at all. Back in April when we first started, a lot of people surprised themselves most pleasantly simply by producing stories they wanted to enter.

However, the purpose of this thread is primarily to give recognition to those stories we admire but may or may not vote for, and to discuss the stories themselves. Hence the title of the thread. But if we limited ourselves to comments like "I love your story" without saying why, and plaintive remarks about how difficult the voting is going to be each month, there wouldn't be much point.

I don't get it. Perhaps you can use an example of where someone on the chrons has used ... mythological ... influences to make a story in which it is not abundantly clear what is going on.

Well, there is TJ's winning story. The rape is described so graphically, it would be difficult to miss what is "going on," and the writing is powerful enough that the win was well-deserved on that account alone, but it certainly adds depth and richness to one's experience of the story to be aware of the mythological background.

Consequences – Terrifying rape of yesteryear fuels a long, long siege
by The Judge

A god he comes, and male, but not a man,
Concealing brutal lust from jealous eyes.

He strikes. Cruel beak engrasps her neck,
Heedless of her pain as Leda cries.

Pale naked body laid between white wings;
Webbed feet, as black as pitch, subdue the ravished thighs.
A savage thrust, and honour dies.

Illium thrown down, great Hector slain,
Ten years of war, of death, of blood-filled lies,
For momentary pleasure in a swan’s disguise.

The penultimate line and the one before make no sense if you don't know the names of the children born of the rape and are not familiar with the events of the Iliad. And of course there is the pleasure of deciphering the clever title, which would be lost on those who lack the mythological reference points.

Those who don't want their stories discussed in this way have only to say so (mosaix's objection has been noted, and if you would prefer that the same hold for your stories please say so), and for those who don't want to take part in discussing the stories ... well, the thread is easy enough to avoid.


****

Oh yes. And per TEIN's request, I did change 2010 to 2011.

 

[R M Tobias]

No crit of anyone.. but a lot of the stuff one runs into - and I mean long trilogies or what have-you, can be based on existing mythology that is unknown to the reader. Where's the line- who knows? King Arthur is known to almost everyone but mention of say, Beowulf, may confuse many. So literary references are hit-and-miss, more so because of the international variety in here. I wasn't sure what a mini-roundabout was, someone else may not know who Ionic was, or what a BagPuss is.
So if the idea is to win, which it isn't really- consideration of the wide range of readership would be a factor.

Sorry mate I'm not following.

I thought the issue was with the use of mythology in the challenge stories, but I'm not sure about your examples.

* mini roundabouts ( a real world, modern piece of traffic control.)

* Ionic ( A character's name, not from mythology.)

* Bagpuss (A children's show.)

I completely understand your notion of considering a readership first, and I think that makes a lot of sense. But I think that should apply both ways.

Everyone is entitled to their vote, but I think writing off whole sections or sub genres so carelessly is poor form.

----------

Teresa, while I agree that understanding the mythology behind The Judge's story might make the experience more poignant it doesn't mean that the story is unreadable without it.

The story can still 'make sense.' I don't know the story behind the Judge's piece yet I am able to enjoy it and understand it at least on the basic story telling level.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

While I agree that understanding the mythology behind The Judge's story might make the experience more poignant it doesn't mean that the story is unreadable without it.

Which is what I said, so I'm not sure where the "while" comes in.

The story is excellent (I voted for it. Twice!) whether you know the mythology or not, but two lines and the title do not appear to follow from the rest of the story, unless you know the mythology, though the true significance of the rape (except on a horrifying personal level to Leda, of course) is contained in those lines and that title. Knowing this not only makes the story more poignant, but lifts it to the level of high tragedy.

Now tell me, what do people gain by being denied the opportunity to learn something they didn't know? Is the story better for not knowing? I don't think so.

 

[Boneman]

Now tell me, what do people gain by being denied the opportunity to learn something they didn't know? Is the story better for not knowing? I don't think so.

Erm... well, despite a classical education - most of which I hated, and couldn't wait to dump by the wayside and never use again, ever - I couldn't remember the mythology behind TJ's story, but I knew it was there... somewhere. I guess, therefore that I'm agreeing with Tobias - it isn't necessary to understand every little nuance and historical/mythological reference, although if you do, then you're getting more out of the story. If it's a good story, it's a good story, whatever the content.

But, I appreciate THIS thread, because it does inform. Some of which I'm interested in, and some of which I'm not. I very rarely get any of the hidden meanings, although occasionally I go looking for them (was immensely pleased with myself when I got one of Ursa's puns about the Marquee de Swords). So when I get an explanation in this thread, I go "Oh, so that was it" and it can add to my body of knowledge. I know I'm not losing anything by not understanding oblique or hidden references, I just enjoy the stories for what they are (for me).

ps: Love your avatar, Teresa

 

[chrispenycate]

Apart from prestidigitation, does ignorance increase one's pleasure in anything? I've still got huge supplies of it, despite dumping it as fast as I've been able to for most of a lifetime.

Oh, if ignorance is bliss… bur that's no scientific proof, any more than blaming curiosity for feline demise. Where's your proof?

I've had people inform me that making stars into balls of incandescent plasma, threaded with lightnings that could fry the entire planet without noticing the power loss instead of candles affixed to a crystal dome makes life a very prosaic place. Perhaps I was born with a lower than average supply of poetry in my soul, for I find suchmagnificent scale inspiring, far more so than sun gods who would play second fiddle to someone who could move a cumulo-nimbus through a tiny portion of an atmosphere which is an invisibly thin layer on the surface of a not over large planet circling a medium star in a not particularly special region of a quite ordinary galaxy and strike me down with lightning.

 

[The Judge]

Sorry mate I'm not following.

I thought the issue was with the use of mythology in the challenge stories, but I'm not sure about your examples.

J Riff actually referred to "mythological ... or whatever-based stories", and I think the mini-roundabouts etc come nicely within "whatever".

I don't know the story behind the Judge's piece yet I am able to enjoy it and understand it at least on the basic story telling level.

While I'm pleased you enjoyed it, I have to say I amazed that you could understand it on any level, though, if you didn't know the story of Leda and the Swan -- the whole last stanza is surely meaningless. There's an apparent rape, but that doesn't make for a story ** and even the question of the disguise -- that month's theme -- is pretty hard to fathom. As a matter of interest, how did you cope with that? Did you simply file it as "Not sure what she's going on about, so no votes for her"? Or did you try and google to find out?

For myself, I like to have to think about the pieces, not just read them as so much bubble-gum for the eyes, so I enjoy stories which have depths, and which can be read again and again. I also like to learn new things. So I'm grateful to all those who have written stories which stretch me. Thank you, people!



** Not sure how to explain what I mean here, but I've noticed it with one or two entries I've seen over the months. I don't mean that they are description only, but that there is no point to them -- they remind me of efforts my nephew produced when he was seven or eight, which started and stopped but that's all that could be said for them. To be a story, I think there has to be something more.

 

[Mouse]

Ouchy! ^ I know my stuff can be quite juvenile sometimes but I'm hoping that I can write better than a seven year old. I've thought that some stories seem to be a scene or description only sometimes, but not really thought about the 'no point' aspect. Hope nobody's thought that about mine!

I find it difficult to write something which is a complete story. I didn't to start with, but Teresa said something to me (not on the boards, this was in a PM, and it wasn't a... what's the word?! criticism?!) that one of my stories was more of a vignette than a story. (And I had to go look that up!) So since then I've tried to make my 75ers as complete as possible. Probably why I take longer now!

And TJ, I didn't know the Leda story, and no, I didn't get yours when you posted it. I could see it was well written but it went totally over my head. Now, of course, I can see exactly what it's about!

 

[The Judge]

You know very well I wasn't talking of your work, Mouse,** though I'd be interested to know which piece Teresa thought was a vignette, if both of you are happy to share it with us.

And I'm pleased my piece has added to your education!


** shudders to think of the work Mouse was producing at junior school...

 

[Mouse]

I don't mind telling you which piece it was...

I remember at primary school the head mistress read out a story I'd written to the whole class, only she kept stopping to comment how good it was which made me grin like a loon. Always remember that!

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

You know very well I wasn't talking of your work, Mouse,** though I'd be interested to know which piece Teresa thought was a vignette, if both of you are happy to share it with us.

And I'm pleased my piece has added to your education!


** shudders to think of the work Mouse was producing at junior school...

Maybe m' work was more what 'er Hona' 'ad in min'?

 

[No One]

* Ionic ( A character's name, not from mythology.)

Just to be a trifle pedantic Ionic is "also" a style of ancient column design used by Greek settlers on the Ionian coast of Asia Minor.

The two other prominent styles later used were - curiously enough - Doric and Corinthian.

 

[The Judge]

Maybe m' work was more what 'er Hona' 'ad in min'?

No, it wasn't. As you also know. *contemplates whether this is worth a slap* And before anyone else comes in, I shall now adopt the HMG's attitude to our spies, neither confirming or denying -- so don't ask.

 

[J Riff]

Been running into 'micro fiction' mags and publishers lately... 'flash fiction'..or even "'Nano' fiction, which I understand to be limited to the 140 characters of twitter or something?
Lessee... 45 stories...times 75 words = almost 3.4K wds. per month..
...a nice short story with 45 chapters.

 

[R M Tobias]

Now tell me, what do people gain by being denied the opportunity to learn something they didn't know? Is the story better for not knowing? I don't think so.

I don't know Teresa it's not much to do with my my original argument. If you want to engage in a debate about the merits of people being denied the opportunity to learn something I am happy to oblige, though I think you will find everyone on the same side.

My original point (argument, debate), which we seem to have strayed from, was PRO / FOR stories that use 'mythological or whatever' and DEFENDING them against JRiff's comments that implied that stories that use 'mythological or whatever' where simply not comprehensive without knowing their backstory.

It would be great to know what your point of view on that argument is.

Just to be a trifle pedantic Ionic is "also" a style of ancient column design used by Greek settlers on the Ionian coast of Asia Minor.

The two other prominent styles later used were - curiously enough - Doric and Corinthian.

Of course, I even posted a link to wiki on that subject a few pages back.

But does it make the story unreadable not knowing that? That is the point that I chose to make, as much as others might want to move the goal posts.

When I wrote three pillars the intention was only to use the nomenclature of classical architecture for naming conventions. There is no deliberate secret hidden message other then what the reader ascribes. Knowing about classical architecture might provide 'aha' moments (like the spear being five foot ash {column}, one foot spear {entablature}; the ratio of Corinthian columns) but at the end of the day its a story about a warrior who arrives too late to stop a sorceress from bringing about her 'new age.'

My biggest regret was not making the staircase 'spiral' as it would have fit nicely with the imagery of volutes, columns and spears all of which are round and 'revolve'

J Riff actually referred to "mythological ... or whatever-based stories", and I think the mini-roundabouts etc come nicely within "whatever".

Clever, I thought of using whatever in that sense as well, but it didn't seem like it was JRiff's intention.

While I'm pleased you enjoyed it, I have to say I amazed that you could understand it on any level,

Don't sell yourself so short. Here's how I interpreted your poem.

A god he comes, and male, but not a man,
Concealing brutal lust from jealous eyes.

A powerful, aggressive male with tendencies of the type of evil that might label as unmanly.

He strikes. Cruel beak engrasps her neck,
Heedless of her pain as Leda cries.

He attacks someone named Leda. The aggressor has a beak, maybe he is not a man at all.

Pale naked body laid between white wings;
Webbed feet, as black as pitch, subdue the ravished thighs.
A savage thrust, and honour dies.

At this point I am now thinking both characters are animals. The imagery of black and white is obvious, but the 'subdue the ravished thighs' is a bit confusing as it is followed by 'a savage thrust, and honour dies.' I say confusing because ravished is past tense (as in the violence already happened.)

'A savage thrust, and honour dies.' Brings me back to 'but not a man.'

Illium thrown down, great Hector slain,
Ten years of war, of death, of blood-filled lies,
For momentary pleasure in a swan’s disguise.

As a result of the attack a place called Illium is destroyed, a character called Hector dies. Ten years of violence and lies follow. I now know that the aggressor was disguised as a swan.

The thing I like about it is it has narrative, something that is often missing or underdeveloped in poetry. The thing I dislike about it is the black /white imagery in the 3rd stanza, though that may be unavoidable due to the source, of which I am not familiar with.

Other things I liked / stood out were the 'a savage thrust' which in this case might not be a sword and (though I might be reading too much into it,) Illium going with Ilium which is a bone in the human body... I think.