New Crackpot Theory

[Brian G Turner]

Hm, this is a really good theory.

I remember being utterly convinced of Ned's death, and yet Sansa not recognising her dad properly stuck in memory.

While not convinced of it, it doesn't seem entirely unplausible. As for reasons by Varys - the downfall of Robert was immediately visible, the potential downfall of the Lannisters was moderately visible (no way Cersei and Jaime could keep things stable, especially with Joffrey as an example). Longer term: uncertainly, fractions, war on all sides. Varys trying his best to keep Ned alive would be a great way to keep a card to his chest to play later for any number of reasons.

However, the big sticking point is Ned. It seems clear he has a choice between duty and death, or life and dishonour - he chose duty. I doubt he'd agree to be stolen anyway anywhere unless he was given a concrete reason.

 

[The Imp]

Hm, this is a really good theory.

I remember being utterly convinced of Ned's death, and yet Sansa not recognising her dad properly stuck in memory.

While not convinced of it, it doesn't seem entirely unplausible. As for reasons by Varys - the downfall of Robert was immediately visible, the potential downfall of the Lannisters was moderately visible (no way Cersei and Jaime could keep things stable, especially with Joffrey as an example). Longer term: uncertainly, fractions, war on all sides. Varys trying his best to keep Ned alive would be a great way to keep a card to his chest to play later for any number of reasons.

However, the big sticking point is Ned. It seems clear he has a choice between duty and death, or life and dishonour - he chose duty. I doubt he'd agree to be stolen anyway anywhere unless he was given a concrete reason.

Except that there's no reason that Ned would have to be a willing participant. Varys could have had him taken from his cell, smuggled out of king's Landing, and brought anywhere, all without Ned's "permission"

There's another thing I thought of last night when talking to my nephew. I don't think i posted it on this thread.

WHy was Illyrio in King's landing? We know that he met with Varys, but what would have been so important that it would have required his presence? Maybe part of the reason that he HAD to be there was to deliver cash to Varys for the payment/hiring of a Faceless Man.

 

[The Imp]

One other thing about Varys. I've always had another crackpot theory that Varys isn't a eunuch and is, in fact, a faceless man. I'm not sure if this hurts r helps the Ned is alive theory though

 

[No One]

If any of the Lannisters (especially Cersei) knew of the false Eddard, I'd have thought that they'd have considered the possibility of trading Eddard for Jaime.

No one D) seems to have picked up on that point, which I think is a very good one.

I'm curious though Imp - if Varys is a Faceless Man, wouldn't he be working against Dany and the possibility of a Targaryen resurgence?

 

[The Imp]

No one D) seems to have picked up on that point, which I think is a very good one.

I'm curious though Imp - if Varys is a Faceless Man, wouldn't he be working against Dany and the possibility of a Targaryen resurgence?

I think that point was addressed when it was pointed out that the Lannisters wouldn't have had to have been in on it, and it could have easily been done without their consent or them even being aware of it.

As for your point, if Illyrio owns the Faceless Men in King's Landing they we working FOR such a resurgence. I'll go further and say that I think the Faceless Men don't take sides and are purely mercenary. Or so it would seem.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm not going to assume that the Faceless Men are purely mercenary, although I can see that they would benefit if their (potential) customers believed this:

• They are, in effect, available to the highest bidder, which can't harm their finances.
• They are "allowed" to take part in what are inevitably secret operations, which must give them a wider (if possibly distorted) picture of the whole game.

I think an organisation that is both rich and well-informed would be tempted to see themselves as possible players. Even where one of their operatives on a purely Faceless Men job is detected, who could prove that he or she is not working for one of the more obvious players?

I suspect Varys is a faceless man. If he is, that suggests that their missions can be very long term (unless there was a real Varys who's been replaced more recently, which I personally doubt). This them begs the question of who might also be on such a mission. Not one of the POV characters, obviously, but that still leaves many, many candidates.

 

[No One]

I think that point was addressed when it was pointed out that the Lannisters wouldn't have had to have been in on it, and it could have easily been done without their consent or them even being aware of it.

Ah. Yes. That's another good point

Also, I appreciate that Ursa is just speculating on the mercenary/organisational aspect of the Faceless Men, but there's a contradition in terms given their specialties.

If the FM are working toward their own agenda (and I'm prepared to believe that they are) then they would have to choose their clients selectively and refuse to act against certain people or factions considered important to their plans. I don't think there's ever been mention of FM refusing a paying client, but of course that doesn't prove anything.

In short: I want answers!

 

[Ursa major]

If you want to refuse a job without saying, "No," do what builders sometimes seem to do:

• Demand a price that no-one in their right minds would pay. (If some idiot really would pay up - in advance, mind you, and in cash, not anything you have to barter - the Faceless Men might still do the job and work round it, just as any group that has to deal with unplanned events would have to.)
• Say that the right man for the job is booked up solid for years. (This has certain benefits, one of which is to imply that there aren't that many operatives, which would reduce the apparent threat the Faceless Men as a whole might pose: a couple of dozen assassins may be able to wreak havoc, but they're not going to usurp your "regime".)

.

 

[No One]

Fair cop Guv'nor.

I suppose we'll know for sure if Jaqen wolf-whistles at a passing attractive woman and is unaware that he's showing butt-cleavage.

 

[Ursa major]

* Wonders if the faceless man who stood in for Ned was told he was there to do a short job on some scaffolding.... *









(A particularly short job, as it turned out, leading to a cut in headline remuneration.)

 

[R M Tobias]

Fuel to the fire

Bran and Rickon were both falsely behead and displayed on the battlements of Winterfell.

Is that a clue? Or is it Wwhat tricks us into thinking the same was done to Eddard.

The main problem I have with Eddard being alive is what the hell is he doing then. It seems unlikely that someone motivated by duty and honour would just sit in the wings while his family is destroyed.

 

[viZion]

The main problem I have with Eddard being alive is what the hell is he doing then. It seems unlikely that someone motivated by duty and honour would just sit in the wings while his family is destroyed.

The only plausible explanation to me is that he's being held captive by Varys until such time that he's needed to prove Jon's heritage. I think Varys has always been out to bring the Targaryens back to power so it's the only good explanation for this theory being true.

 

[hadd]

Ned had pretty bad injuries too if i remember correctly. That prison cell wasn't exactly the best place where to cure them. Or at least he had a broken leg... He might as well be hiding at Illyrio's maybe, until he recovers and a better time comes (being a time when Varys himself leaves King's Landing).

 

[Gamblor]

I really like the theory -certainly not one I have thought of before, thanks Imp!

I don't think it would take anything from AGOT either, it would be testament to GRRM's ability as a storyteller. Plus, I was very sad [wipes tear from eye] when Ned died. The injustice of it!

My thoughts on the improbabilities of it though keep coming back to the Lannisters. Surely they would have known about the scheme - and if they did, what purpose would Ned being alive serve, not as a bargaining chip, especially after the red wedding.

However if it turns out they didn't know then I suppose the other theories offered here would work.

Very interesting.

 

[Culhwch]

If this played out, it would be even more egregious than if it turns out that Jaqen is Syrio. He isn't, by the way. Syrio is dead. And so is Ned.

 

[Ursa major]

Perhaps Syrio is dead...






...because it was Syrio that Arya saw being executed....

(What's really happening, by the way, is that Bran never woke up and it's all in his dreams.)

 

[The Imp]

I really like the theory -certainly not one I have thought of before, thanks Imp!

I don't think it would take anything from AGOT either, it would be testament to GRRM's ability as a storyteller. Plus, I was very sad [wipes tear from eye] when Ned died. The injustice of it!

My thoughts on the improbabilities of it though keep coming back to the Lannisters. Surely they would have known about the scheme - and if they did, what purpose would Ned being alive serve, not as a bargaining chip, especially after the red wedding.

However if it turns out they didn't know then I suppose the other theories offered here would work.

Very interesting.

WHile my initial estimation of Cersei was that of someone who was a very shrewd political player, that obviously changed as the series wore on. I now think it's possible that Moonboy could hatch a plan that could get by the good Queen. Almost, anyway. As for other Lannisters, no one else was around, unless you want to count the kids.

 

[The Imp]

If this played out, it would be even more egregious than if it turns out that Jaqen is Syrio. He isn't, by the way. Syrio is dead. And so is Ned.

Why would either be egregious? Both are probably less likely than either or both being dead, but there is certainly wiggle-room for both theories, and given the clues, "doors left ajar', red herrings, etc. that GRRM has littered the first book with, it wouldn't or shouldn't come as a total shock to anyone if one or both turned up alive at some point. Neither would be a case of deus ex machina, not even close, and something such as that would be the only thing that is ever reall egregious IMO.

I don't think you can say with any degree of certtainty that both are dead.

 

[The Imp]

I guess the one caveat to all of this is that The Faceless Men are almost by definition GRRM's implementation of Deus Ex Machina. I think he has to use them carefully, or there could be a lot of finger pointing and pissed off people.

 

[viZion]

Why would either be egregious? Both are probably less likely than either or both being dead, but there is certainly wiggle-room for both theories, and given the clues, "doors left ajar', red herrings, etc. that GRRM has littered the first book with, it wouldn't or shouldn't come as a total shock to anyone if one or both turned up alive at some point. Neither would be a case of deus ex machina, not even close, and something such as that would be the only thing that is ever reall egregious IMO.

I don't think you can say with any degree of certtainty that both are dead.

For me, it would be egregious for Ned to be alive because it would cheapen the power and effect that the scene had on many readers. Eddard dying is arguably the first point in the series where you knew GRRM wasn't messing around. Where you knew this series was really something special. Something gritty and realistic and possibly without any happy endings. Sure, Bran getting thrown off a tower was shocking, but he survived. Sure, Lady's execution was shocking and emotional but it was "just" an animal without a POV. Eddard dying blew me away since he seemed destined to be a major POV for the entirety of the series. I did not see his death coming at all. I hope GRRM doesn't take the power of that scene away from us by bringing him back to life. I'm not saying your theory isn't plausible because it is; I'm just saying that I hope it doesn't come true.

I wouldn't care if Syrio came back or turned out to be Jaqen or whatever. I mean, Syrio was a cool character but I never got very emotionally attached to him, probably because he didn't have a POV.