New Crackpot Theory

[The Imp]

For me, it would be egregious for Ned to be alive because it would cheapen the power and effect that the scene had on many readers. Eddard dying is arguably the first point in the series where you knew GRRM wasn't messing around. Where you knew this series was really something special. Something gritty and realistic and possibly without any happy endings. Sure, Bran getting thrown off a tower was shocking, but he survived. Sure, Lady's execution was shocking and emotional but it was "just" an animal without a POV. Eddard dying blew me away since he seemed destined to be a major POV for the entirety of the series. I did not see his death coming at all. I hope GRRM doesn't take the power of that scene away from us by bringing him back to life. I'm not saying your theory isn't plausible because it is; I'm just saying that I hope it doesn't come true.

I wouldn't care if Syrio came back or turned out to be Jaqen or whatever. I mean, Syrio was a cool character but I never got very emotionally attached to him, probably because he didn't have a POV.

I agree with this but I still woudn't call it egregious, given the crcumstantial evidence and clues littered about. I think it's far more likely that GRRM did this to leave a little doubt and room for discussion, nothing more, but if in the end it turns out that Ned is alive, the way in which that particular story is told will determine my feelings. Again though, I agree in principle with what you said.

 

["Corn"flakes]

Something else to explain is how Bran and Rickon dreamed that their father was back at Winterfell.

 

[No One]

WHile my initial estimation of Cersei was that of someone who was a very shrewd political player, that obviously changed as the series wore on.

Interesting, I said the same thing to someone recently. I think seeing Cersei from other peoples' POV gave the impression of her shrewdness, but once we gained the insight of Cersei's own POV, it's become abundantly clear how close to whacko she really is. Of course, we have to take into account Joffery and Tywin's deaths, and Jaime's absenses, which will have factored in her increasing paranoia.

Oh, and I still believe Bran and Rickon are dead.

 

[Mesanna]

For me, it would be egregious for Ned to be alive because it would cheapen the power and effect that the scene had on many readers. Eddard dying is arguably the first point in the series where you knew GRRM wasn't messing around. Where you knew this series was really something special. Something gritty and realistic and possibly without any happy endings. Sure, Bran getting thrown off a tower was shocking, but he survived. Sure, Lady's execution was shocking and emotional but it was "just" an animal without a POV. Eddard dying blew me away since he seemed destined to be a major POV for the entirety of the series. I did not see his death coming at all. I hope GRRM doesn't take the power of that scene away from us by bringing him back to life. I'm not saying your theory isn't plausible because it is; I'm just saying that I hope it doesn't come true.

I second your comments viZion. I have really enjoyed the posts in this thread as we try to convince ourselves Ned is still alive, but I don't seriously believe for a minute that he is. I think that if I were to read in a subsequent book about Ned's reappearance - no doubt just in time to save the day - I would feel somewhat swindled by GRRM. It's one thing for a character to disappear under mysterious circumstances, then reappear much later (like Benjen, for example), but not Ned. His death seemed too absolute. Sure, Gandalf came back and Moiraine came back (actually loads of "dead" folks came back in WoT), but ASOIAF has always seemed more "real" than those series, and for Ned to return would dimminish the stunning impact his death had in the first place.

But, having said all that, this thread is fun! And I'm wondering just how seriously The Imp takes the theory himself??!

 

[Eulalia]

If Ned were alive, it would ruin the emotional impact of whatever achievements the next gen has made, too. Ned is King or Hand, everyone else can sit back down with Dad at the wheel?

 

[The Imp]

I second your comments viZion. I have really enjoyed the posts in this thread as we try to convince ourselves Ned is still alive, but I don't seriously believe for a minute that he is. I think that if I were to read in a subsequent book about Ned's reappearance - no doubt just in time to save the day - I would feel somewhat swindled by GRRM. It's one thing for a character to disappear under mysterious circumstances, then reappear much later (like Benjen, for example), but not Ned. His death seemed too absolute. Sure, Gandalf came back and Moiraine came back (actually loads of "dead" folks came back in WoT), but ASOIAF has always seemed more "real" than those series, and for Ned to return would dimminish the stunning impact his death had in the first place.

But, having said all that, this thread is fun! And I'm wondering just how seriously The Imp takes the theory himself??!

The original post was almost a joke. I think it's been a fun discussion, but if I was going to bet, I'd put the odds at somewhere around 9 to 1 against it actually being true.

 

[The Imp]

Something else to explain is how Bran and Rickon dreamed that their father was back at Winterfell.

Welcome to the forum Corn Flakes

If Ned is alive, the dreams are red herrings. The fact that they both had the same dream SEEMS to support Ned being dead, but doesn't pove it.

 

[Mesanna]

If Ned were alive, it would ruin the emotional impact of whatever achievements the next gen has made, too. Ned is King or Hand, everyone else can sit back down with Dad at the wheel?

This is a good point Eulalia. It diminishes the sacrifices his children have made, and makes their struggles to avenge their father rather pointless. Besides, if Ned were to come back and discover that - as far as he is aware - his family are all dead or believed dead, the shock would probably kill him all over again!

 

[Eulalia]

We could start a crackpot rumour that Ned is Coldhands? Coldhands and Stoneheart are reunited and have a renewal of vows at the Queensgate. Okay, no, just no.

I think for this story to work, most of the older generation have to be disposed of. Balon Greyjoy. Tywin Lannister. Ned. King Robert. Aemon. The Old Bear. Doran. The Uncat.

Who will surprise us all and live? Walder Frey? Stannis? BFS? Roose Bolton? TK could show us many threads for this.

Do you think GRRM could have one of the less likely people sit the Iron Throne when the dust clears. Wyllis? (think Claudius) Arienne? (Mary Queen of Scots) Theon? (viking kings--umm)Randall Tarly? (Julius Caesar) Lord Robert (Ivan the Terrible)

 

[NightStalker]

Let's go back to the Faceless Man idea for a sec. Varys pays a Faceless Man to be Ned, go to the Wall, then disappear. Meanwhile, the real Ned is safe somewhere in the Free Cities. Joffrey screwed the works up for the FM, but had Varys planned this, the plan was foolproof, even Joffrey-proof. This would explain btw why the head on the spike looked nothing like Ned to Sansa

Maybe a guy who was with Jaquen H'gar in the black cells? They were to go to the wall anyway, so if he thought he'd go to the wall anyway..
Also that means that if Ned is hiding, or maybe being hidden against his will It also crossed my mind that it might not have been Varys but Littlefinger? And since he betrayed Ned, it might explain him being held against his will...

Also, if it was a faceless man who was in the cells with Jaquen H'Gar then maybe Jaquen would know something about it, and Arya could find out..
I was going to say Sansa might find out if it was Littlefinger's doing, but before or after her marriage to Harry the Heir..? (I think he's called Harry anyway)

 

[Boaz]

I know this has been done before... but here it is... just picture Jon and Dany ready to ride off into the sunset...

Dany: Whose sword is this?
Jon: It's Valyrian Steel, baby.
Dany: Whose Valyrian Steel is this?
Jon: It's Ned's.
Dany: Who's Ned?
Jon: Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead.

 

[Ursa major]

I may have misheard, but I thought Jon's second reply was: "It's no one's but mine."

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I may have misheard, but I thought Jon's second reply was: "It's no one's but mine."

By you replying are you trying to say that it was actually a "bear" that gave him the sword?

 

[Ursa major]

That's an Other story....

 

[Brian G Turner]

Lol! I nearly took the idea seriously, as remembered Sansa's scene with the heads on the battlements the more. But just reread Game of Thrones and I think there's absolutely no room for doubt about what happened.

 

[The Imp]

Lol! I nearly took the idea seriously, as remembered Sansa's scene with the heads on the battlements the more. But just reread Game of Thrones and I think there's absolutely no room for doubt about what happened.

I think the "room for doubt" is in Ned dying in Arya's POV as opposed to his own. I also re-read all of the relevant material in AGOT, and as I said when I first posted the idea, it's absolutely a crackpot theory of the highest magnitude, and is VERY unlikely to be true, but intentially or not, GRRm leaves a little bit of wiggle room in various places - (Ned being apart from everyone else supported by 2 Gold Cloaks, Ned dying in Arya's POV, Arya thinking he looked thinner than she ever remembered, Sansa thinking the head didn't look at all like her father, Cat saying the bones weren't that of her husband, the msytery of why Mopatis had to be in King's Landing at that particular point in time, etc)- so that a little doubt has to remain.

 

[southron sword]

I think the "room for doubt" is in Ned dying in Arya's POV as opposed to his own. I also re-read all of the relevant material in AGOT, and as I said when I first posted the idea, it's absolutely a crackpot theory of the highest magnitude, and is VERY unlikely to be true, but intentially or not, GRRm leaves a little bit of wiggle room in various places - (Ned being apart from everyone else supported by 2 Gold Cloaks, Ned dying in Arya's POV, Arya thinking he looked thinner than she ever remembered, Sansa thinking the head didn't look at all like her father, Cat saying the bones weren't that of her husband, the msytery of why Mopatis had to be in King's Landing at that particular point in time, etc)- so that a little doubt has to remain.

Ha! Thats awesome

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think the "room for doubt" is in Ned dying in Arya's POV as opposed to his own.

Hm, more that everyone was sure Ned was going to the wall - that's what had been arranged - but it was Joffrey's unpredictability that changed it at the last moment.

GRRM is careful to show that even Varys was surprised and tried to stop it in some way, and Yoren had been told that Ned would be going back with him.

It would have taken Joffrey to set up a fake double and presume everyone else would have been fooled by it. He wasn't that clever.

 

[Ursa major]

It would have taken Joffrey to set up a fake double and presume everyone else would have been fooled by it. He wasn't that clever.

Clever enough to fake his own death.

(Well Joffrey must be alive: he didn't die in his own POV. )

 

[Mesanna]

Well Joffrey must be alive: he didn't die in his own POV.

Oh please NO!!