Crop Circles

[Starbeast]

Hmmm ... have just finished watching the intrepid sasquatch hunters. I'm glad nothing happened to the rabbit! But they seemed to encounter something?
No proof what it was, of course, but there seemed to be something out there (part four)?

You know, on the subject of hairy apes -- when I lived near Cape Point, in Cape Town, I used to get baboons in my house, often -- everybody did. If you leave a door open one of them will walk right past you, if you're lying on the bed with your back turned, and you'll look up and he's in the kitchen. They are so silent. They never attack or hurt anyone, though.

And they never come out at night because their greatest predator is the leopard, so they still retain that instinct, although there aren't too many leopards around Cape Point anymore these days.

I wouldn't like those baboons sneaking around, I'd post pictures of jaguars in the windows and use recorded jaguar roars to keep them away. Maybe a life-size dummy jaguar near the sliding doors too.

Thanks for the episode of "Finding Bigfoot", I haven't seen that one. Sorry to go off the subject of crop circles.

Not artists, not real artists, No artist would not claim such work.
No. If human, they are: Rich. Bored. Have a friend who is some kind of genius at design. Are extremely sneaky and organized.
Or, the aliens are mute. They try, but people are too conditioned, or dim, to bother figuring it out. What...? ... they should develop speech and learn a new language - just to communicate with idiots who can't read the simplest markings on the ground?

I believe that in rare cases crop messages, that aliens have tried to let us know they are usually around. The authentic crop circles always show signs of great heat affecting the plants and extremely dry soil from something that generated intense heat. I remember as a kid when I would go to a certain park and there was a large circle on the ground and that nothing would grow there no matter how much grass seed and water the groundskeeper would put there. I didn't think anything about it then, but today, I would have taken soil samples. Unfortunately that park has been developed and buildings now stand there.

Since there have been so many hoaxers creating highly detailed (sorry to use the term J Riff) "crop art", I believe the aliens (whoever they are) are using other means to make us aware that they are around.

Perhaps all of those ancient people who spoke of beings from elsewhere returning here some day were serious. We know they weren't igorant because they knew about astronomy, building structures, art etc. But they looked upon these strange travelers from the sky as magical beings who used incredible flying things to get here.

 

[skeptical]

Since there have been so many hoaxers creating highly detailed (sorry to use the term J Riff) "crop art", I believe the aliens (whoever they are) are using other means to make us aware that they are around.

How about knocking on the door and saying : "Take me to your leader."

Sorry, Starbeast, but that is a very naive interpretation. We are talking of potentially star travelling extraterrestrials with massively advanced civilisations, and all they can think of to communicate is a few mashed wheat plants?

If your belief was correct, and our hypothetical aliens had been observing humanity for decades, if not eons, then they would have translated our languages, and determined our radio frequencies. Communication would be the least of their problems.

 

[Starbeast]

How about knocking on the door and saying : "Take me to your leader." If your belief was correct, and our hypothetical aliens had been observing humanity for decades, if not eons, then they would have translated our languages, and determined our radio frequencies. Communication would be the least of their problems.

I don't think most humans are ready for a direct approach, they'd freak out. Wouldn't you be alarmed if you spotted (let's say) a grey alien staring quietly at you from a darkened room at your home?

 

[skeptical]

Personally, if I met a friendly alien, especially one that could speak English, I would be over the moon with delight.

Sadly, I have not done so, or seen credible evidence that any such beast exists.

 

[Dave]

I don't think most humans are ready for a direct approach, they'd freak out.

Well, if Crop Circles are just 'hints' to us, I'd have to agree with skeptical that they have some serious communication problems.

 

[J Riff]

Nope, these are the new ones, and they are mute. Evolved beyond speech.
They don't like our official leaders. They have been shot at numerous times.
They contacted humans in the late seventies and met with them, and the other alien race that's been here for a long time, on Mars, where our former owner had it's main base. This happened in conjuction with the first NASA photo op up there.
A deal was struck, and now the spheres are here to stay. There may have been thirty of them when I was there, no idea who has showed up since, or who else is on the way.
The Spiders? May still be around, though I think they took off and burned for eighteen days, but were indeed requested to return if possible.
"Hi! I'm your new leader!"

Of course it's a lot worse that just that. There goes our history...(flushing sound)and our science, and oh gee probably our art and most everything else. Hope that fits into everyone's reality.

waitaminit... what is that giant Krasnodar cropart?... it's ... it's ... a Giant Spider! he's back!

 

[JunkMonkey]

I don't think most humans are ready for a direct approach, they'd freak out. Wouldn't you be alarmed if you spotted (let's say) a grey alien staring quietly at you from a darkened room at your home?

I think I prefer my theory which I posted on my blog a while back:

I've been convinced for years that aliens have already made contact and are softening the world up by infiltrating children's TV. The real aliens aren't grey like the UFO nuts have us believe they are just about every colour but grey. Red. Green. Blue. Orange. When the generation brought up on The Tweenies, Barney, The Teletubbies, BooBahs and all the other weirdnesses that fill the preschool schedules at the moment hold the reigns of power the aliens will step forward.

In 2065 a giant silvery flying saucer will land on the White House lawn. Troops will rush into place. Tanks trundle down Pennsylvania Avenue. A line appears in the side of the ominous silveryness. A crack. It widens! It's a door! A ramp starts to slide forward. Troops finger triggers in nervous anticipation. Around the world millions lean forward towards their TV screen. The ramp has touched the grass. There's movement inside the disc and a strange figure emerges. It stands for a moment at the top of the ramp and raises a hand in an unmistakable gesture of friendship. It speaks:

Eh-oh, La-la! Eh-oh, Tinky-Winky!

In my more horrible 4am bouts of paranoia I'm convinced the world has been contacted by more than one alien race - and they don't like each other. For some reason they have chosen Earth as their battleground and during my kids' lifetimes vast ranks of evil Tweenies and Teletubbies will fill the streets and blast away whole city blocks with powerful laser weapons as they attempt to exterminate each other.

 

[RJM Corbet]

It's likely that Cosmic law prevents superior cultures from interfering with inferior ones, without the express request of that inferior culture -- according to the Higher Law of 'free-will'.

Of course, an evil superior culture might ignore the law of free will, and just invade.

So, unless aliens are going to invade and occupy earth, it's probably against the 'law' for them to interfere with us physically?

We would have to ASK them for help ...

 

[JunkMonkey]

All together now.

One... Two... Three...

HELP!

If they're not here by the end of next week I'll assume they're not coming.

 

[RJM Corbet]

Funny!

But the concept of free-will does seem to go with civilized behaviour?

 

[HareBrain]

You only have to brush the accounts of contact experiences to know there's absolutely no consistency to them apart from their lack of consistency. A great many of these beings seem to have no ethical problem with getting physical with the natives, and apart from a few vague messages about peace and love, their motives are inscrutable. Or would be, if they truly existed. But whether those stories are made up, the result of some kind of psychotic episode or something weirder, the sheer variety and randomness of them argues against anything as logical as actual beings from space.

 

[RJM Corbet]

You only have to brush the accounts of contact experiences to know there's absolutely no consistency to them apart from their lack of consistency. A great many of these beings seem to have no ethical problem with getting physical with the natives, and apart from a few vague messages about peace and love, their motives are inscrutable. Or would be, if they truly existed. But whether those stories are made up, the result of some kind of psychotic episode or something weirder, the sheer variety and randomness of them argues against anything as logical as actual beings from space.

My own personal philosophy is that we exist in a room of 'nature' enclosed by walls of time within a greater house of 'spirit' which surrounds and contains and permeates nature (by which I mean all that we can perceive, including the stars) but is not contained by nature. 'My Father's house has many mansions.'

We are like tiny little three-year-old kids in a kindergarden, learning what we have to know to go forward, and protected by walls of time from outside forces we know nothing about and which would destroy us in an instant -- not maliciously -- just as a three-year-old wouldn't last half a day in the city without being hit by a bus or something.

We form groups and nations, religions and sciences, while these great cosmic beings look down on us and watch us, as we play and fight and learn life's early lessons, and graze our knees. It all seems pretty serious and important to us, though. They may sometimes reveal themselves to us, but they don't have to. They're not limited by space and time. They are what we call 'spiritual' beings; they are our own higher destiny.

The walls of the house of spirit are LOVE. But we don't fully understand love. It is the glue of existence. It is what holds everything together as 'one' in the same way that 'time' holds nature together. Physical love is an expression of spiritual love -- the desire to enter 'paradise' by becoming 'one with the all' -- and the knowledge that in fact, we are.

Perhaps there are other, even higher dimensions, that surround and permeate both the spirit and nature.

We don't know ...

 

[HareBrain]

RJM, you should definitely read this.

 

[RJM Corbet]

RJM, you should definitely read this.

Cool, you mean someone used my idea already?
Thank you

 

[HareBrain]

Cool, you mean someone used my idea already?

Ha. No, not quite, but you'll find many of the ideas in sympathy. Although I think his attitude to evidence is a little less rigorous than it could be, I found his ideas on consciousness and its evolution inspiring.

 

[RJM Corbet]

The chance of 'life' originating, even in the perfect conditions on our planet, was very slim indeed. University professors will tell you that the chances of a barrel of monkeys writing the complete works of Shakespeare are actually higher than the chances of dna originating.

That's the truth.

It's not as if you just take the chemicals and shake them up in a bottle at the right temperature and pressure and so on, and 'life' is just automatically going to -- what's the word? -- happen.

Now there's an interesting punctuation conundrum ...

 

[skeptical]

RJM

That is 'logic' from ignorance. No offense intended since I am just as ignorant as you on the business of the origin of life.

However, we just do not know how the first DNA came into existence, and so any statement about probability on the basis of mixing chemicals in some kind of bucket is just silly.

There have been a few things discovered that increase the likelihood. For example, crystals of montmorillonite - a common form of clay - act as a template for amino acids, lining themup to polymerise into polypeptides, the simplest form of protein. There are interactions between polypeptides and nucleic acids. So it is very likely that something very simple happened, like a polypeptide forming against montmorillonite crystals, and that lining up nucleotides to form the first RNA. After that, it is all evolution.

Of course, I do not know. But to speculate that DNA is less probable than Shakespeare from monkeys, is to p*ss into the wind. Not a wise act!

 

[Starbeast]

Without our Moon that orbits our planet, life would be different here.

Is Earth a planet where humans evolved from apes? I could never believe that.

But that's my opinion.

The right conditions could make a planet habitable, but to find a planet close to our own isn't easy.

To live in a space station isn't easy, nor living in a contained environment (let's say) on Mars wouldn't be easy. It would take a great deal of time to set up and transport thousands people to the planet.

Humans are still struggling, and the road ahead doesn't look promising. Perhaps the real message from most of these crop circles (be they man-made or other) are trying to tell us that we need to work together and help each other before it's too late.

 

[RJM Corbet]

... since I am just as ignorant as you on the business of the origin of life ... However, we just do not know how the first DNA came into existence ... Of course, I do not know.

Well let's not lose any sleep over it, we're in the same condition of ignorance on 'how' life came into being as the greatest biologists on earth. It's all speculation. Educated guesswork. Definitely no 'proof' -- except the undeniable fact that life does exist.

But the point I'm making is that nowadays everyone seems to assume that if they find a planet suitable for life -- and there are some amazing forms of life proposed, sulphuric acid life in Venus' atmosphere -- that 'life' will originate there. I don't actually mean Venus, though of course it's theoretically still possible.

The chances of life originating anywhere, even on Earth, are actually pretty slim. That's the point I'm making. Perhaps Earth just 'won the cosmic lottery' -- Steven Hawkins words, not mine. Perhaps life, and our human life, is far more rare and precious than we suspect?

But then again, the universe is so huge.

We might have to go a bit further out than some people seem to imagine, to find other life in the universe though ...

EDIT: Thanks SB for making an effort to nudge this thread back on course. I quite like the way these threads tangle and wander, but the mods don't always seem to agree. We could perhaps start with the Sahara desert, or the arctic, before trying to 'terraform' Mars?

 

[skeptical]

To RJM

I totally agree with you in your speculations about the probability of life forming around other stars. I am especially skeptical considering there have now been over 200 extrasolar planets discovered, and not one solar system equivalent to our own.

Our solar system is strange in that
1. Planetary orbits are close to circular
2. Our largest planets are way out.
3. No super-giant planets, much bigger than Jupiter.

The first is important since it ameliorates climatic variation. For life to thrive on a planet with a strongly elliptical orbit, which we now know is true for most planets, with enormous changes in temperature over one planetary year, seems unlikely.

The second is important since large planets close to the star have massive effects on planets further out, partly due to the effect on the star, and partly due to planetary perturbations. In our own solar system, having Jupiter well out means that it acts as a "cosmic vacuum cleaner" with its gravity sweeping up assorted system debris, that might otherwise be turned into an orbit that intersects the Earth.

The third would be devastating. A super-Jupiter could not avoid upsetting planetary orbits all over the joint. Especially if it had an inner orbit, as so many do, making it orbit very close to any planet in the 'Goldilocks' or liquid water zone.

Overall, for life to develop around another star will require, not just a planet in the 'Goldilocks Zone' with liquid water, but probably a whole range of other properties suitable for life. If I am right, then life will be rare. Intelligent life will be even rarer.