A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[Ursa major]

It could be ruby such as Mel wears.


Or it could be a ruby such as Rattleshirt/Mance wears....





(Or it could be the perfectly "ordinary" eye of a Faceless Man.)

 

[Needle]

It could be ruby such as Mel wears.


Or it could be a ruby such as Rattleshirt/Mance wears....





(Or it could be the perfectly "ordinary" eye of a Faceless Man.)

Anything is possible I guess! I tend to think it is somehow related to visions aka: Crows Eye.

 

[Renblah]

"Real Dragons don't burn." or something to that affect. Is it possible that Viserys was a fake, even though the hair was right..?

 

[Boaz]

Renblah, Welcome!

I believe that Viserys was the son of King Aerys II Targaryen and his queen (and wife and sister) Rhaella. The reason the Targs wed brother to sister was to keep the bloodlines pure. Since both Aerys and Rhaella were Targs, I see no reason for either of them to participate in a plot to introduce a non-Targ or half-Targ to the line of succession.

Not only was Viserys' hair correct, but his eyes were correct as well.

My guess is that somehow the Targs have some type of power to befriend dragons. It does not appear that Dany dreams like Bran and the Stark children do... but mayhaps I should reread ADWD. I don't think that all the Starks in every generation can do this, but somehow all of them in this generation can link minds and feelings with direwolves. The Targs may have the same power and mayhaps it is the dragons that make the power work differently. I think it is Dany's ability to bond with her dragons that allows her to withstand fire and heat.

In The Lord of the Rings, we see a few of the men of Middle-earth who have descended from the ancient Numenoreans... Aragorn, Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, and Imrahil are the best examples. The racial gifts/abilities of the Numenoreans reveal their Elven heritage. These abilities include prophecy, visions, long life, wisdom, superior health, courage, and social graces/nobility. Aragorn displays all of these qualities. So do Denethor and Faramir. Yet Boromir, Denethor's son and Faramir's brother, seems to lack prophecy and wisdom. Tolkien wrote something to the effect that "the blood of Numenor ran true in Denethor and Faramir, yet not in Boromir." Eomer told Aragorn something like, "Boromir is more like the sons of Eorl than the men of Gondor."

The hair and eyes mark the outward appearances of the noble houses of Westeros, but it is the more subtle, or hidden, qualities that denote the true heirs of Houses Targaryen, Stark, and Reed.

I'm also reminded of the biblical story of Jacob and Esau. The twin brothers fought over their father's gifts. Esau, as the elder brother, was to recieve the lion's share of the inheritance plus a spiritual blessing, i.e. a special prophecy. First, Jacob convinced Esau to sell him the larger inheritance of property and land. Later, Jacob successfully tricked his blind father, Isaac, to give him the prophecy of success and domination. Esau, while not concerned with losing his inheritance (he was going to be successful even without his father's money), flew into a murderous rage upon learning that Jacob stole his blessing and Jacob was forced to flee into exile for over a decade.

The point that I'd like to make is that the outward gifts of money, property, and land meant nothing to Esau. But the hidden and subtle blessing, the prophecy of God's good will, was the real sign of who would succeed Isaac... and Esau knew it had been stolen from him.

I'm not saying that the Targaryen ability to bond with dragons was up for grabs, I'm just saying Dany had it and Viserys did not... much to Viserys' disappointment.

Just my two cents.

 

[Timba]

Renblah, Welcome!



My guess is that somehow the Targs have some type of power to befriend dragons. It does not appear that Dany dreams like Bran and the Stark children do... but mayhaps I should reread ADWD. I don't think that all the Starks in every generation can do this, but somehow all of them in this generation can link minds and feelings with direwolves. The Targs may have the same power and mayhaps it is the dragons that make the power work differently. I think it is Dany's ability to bond with her dragons that allows her to withstand fire and heat.


Just my two cents.

I totally agree, even in the shell I think the dragons had made a connection with Dany.

 

[Boaz]

Timba, a connection with her when she put them on the brazier? I'd not thought of that.

 

[Timba]

Timba, a connection with her when she put them on the brazier? I'd not thought of that.

I cannot place a specific time although that seems as good a time as any. Why would she just suddenly start heating eggs she was told were fossilized. Something brought this thought to her and by the time she had them added to the pyre with Drogo she seemed almost certain and was positive she would survive the flame. This is one of those tantalizing thought trails that GRRM lays down that will probably never be clarified but it seems to me there must have been a connection even if it was subconcious for her.

 

[King Stark]

Jon is not dead, The wildings will save him or Melisandre will give him the kiss of life. He will then become lord of winterfell or there is a patchment that robb signed that jon would become king in the north if he died. This has yet to be found.

Bran i think will control a dragon. He will fight the wrights with a dragon. its always said he wont walk but he will fly.

 

[Jaqen H'gar]

Timba, a connection with her when she put them on the brazier? I'd not thought of that.

From the moment she was given them, Dany felt drawn towards the eggs. She spends hours simply looking at them. She probably put them on the brazier because she felt that was what she was supposed to do. I

 

[FrancisG]

Evening all, or early morning for those over the pond (I am US). But I wanted to put in my 2 cents. I have read a lot today and been SPOILED like crazy, but I knew that walking in here. No worries on that as well. But real quick, writing is tough, especially if over a long period of time. GRRM could have had some real life issues pop up and/ or distracted him. Plus as the years go by, sometimes you forget your original ideas (even if somewhat outlined) or sometimes you decide you like something better and try to work it in. Doesn't always work, but you try (as a writer). So go easy on DWD.

NOW FOR THE GOOD STUFF

Is Jon Snow dead? I am guessing not, and if is, we'll see again. I say this with an idea. There's lots of talk he's likely Azor something and sounds likely. There was other talk of him somehow being 'resurrected' by others (various opinions on who). But there has been one I have not seen yet, but maybe I haven't read yet.

This might be a big spoiler, so I ramble a bit. Jon may have been Lord Commander of whatever, but his men killed or tried to kill him, so I am thinking his obligations are somewhat removed should he choose to. From what little I know of Jon, he'll keep those obligations stronger than ever now. Ok, turn away now if not want to hear a possiblity.
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We've seen the fallen become 'White Walkers' (those dead guys). Perhaps what he could not do in life he can in death. Perhaps Jon can rally the White Walkers into a fighting force if he too is a White Walker.

or Perhaps being so close to death or being revived in some fashion will give him new insight to the white walkers and maybe the Ice dragon.

I know, very unlikely. He's likely Azor Azmi or whatever. But it might lead to some fun thoughts til the next book. I'll post another soon .... maybe

 

[FrancisG]

I'll just say my last theory ends up likely in book 7, so I keep my mouth shut. I somewhat fear GRRM is ripping up pages over the white walker theory. If you are GRRM, don't. I am a nobody who knows outlines. It's not where you end up, it's how you get there. Avatar, loved world-wide, but very predictable after Jake was taken in.

I still waiting on if Tyrion makes it through it all. I hope he does or at least a valiant death, but is any death truely valiant? Actually yes . It's taking another's life that is never valiant. My mistake.

However, guessing many are readers and read many books, so how can you not see the ending. Well, I am guessing on a lot of your speculation here and I know what I would do. Will GRRM? Likely not. Last time I was 100% on outlines, it was Buffy's last season before the resurrection. If I spoiled that there, my bad. Feel free to message me though, however I be starting on book one when it arrives.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I'll just say my last theory ends up likely in book 7, so I keep my mouth shut. I somewhat fear GRRM is ripping up pages over the white walker theory. If you are GRRM, don't. I am a nobody who knows outlines. It's not where you end up, it's how you get there. Avatar, loved world-wide, but very predictable after Jake was taken in.

This whole board is for speculation, Francis, so I wouldn't worry about voicing your theories, but just so you know: GRRM does NOT read this board.

He said in an interview that he stays well away from forums about his books because they are full of such speculation and he doesn't want it to influence him.

Here is the interview where he said it.


Welcome to the Chrons.

 

[juleska]

I don't think that all the Starks in every generation can do this, but somehow all of them in this generation can link minds and feelings with direwolves. The Targs may have the same power and mayhaps it is the dragons that make the power work differently. I think it is Dany's ability to bond with her dragons that allows her to withstand fire and heat.

This passage here made something "click" for me....

Indeed there is no evidence that Ned (nor, so far as we know, his brother who got cooked by a dragon) had any special abilities like all the children clearly do.... i.e. warging.

I suddenly recall that famous line of Jon's from early in AGOT: "There are 5 pups and you have 5 trueborn children. The direwolf is the sigil of House Stark. Your children were meant to have these pups."

The discovery of the dead mama direwolf was so shocking at that point because everybody there thought direwolves didn't exist anymore, or hadn't been in that area for a long, long time.

It's been said here many times that magic & spiritual powers seem to be increasing, and that some of that can be attributed to Dany's dragons being born....though not all of it. The Others appeared before the dragons. The direwolves appeared before the dragons. But one way or another it all seems to be linked.

Ned didn't have the warging abilities of his children because the "magic" wasn't there. With the presence of the wolves in their lives, and with the general increase of mystical things & happenings in the world, this ability to warg was "awakened". Of all the Stark kids, Robb (being forced into declaring war and leading the family from his father's death) had the least opportunity to cultivate this awakening talent.

I think it also could explain why Viserys was killed by the pot of gold, but Dany survived the fire. They had the same parents, it's possible she got the stronger gene pool but I think their DNA is essentially equal. But Viserys' demise came early in this magical awakening, and before the dragons, after a long period of his extraordinary abilities being suppressed in favor of simple survival.

Just musing....

 

[Ursa major]

Indeed there is no evidence that Ned (nor, so far as we know, his brother who got cooked by a dragon)....

The "dragon" who cooked Ned's brother was Aerys II, the "Mad King". No real dragons were involved.

 

[juleska]

The "dragon" who cooked Ned's brother was Aerys II, the "Mad King". No real dragons were involved.

Ahhh.....my memory is failing me. I've only read the series once cover to cover, and that dratted "real life" with all its "responsibilities" and "stuff to do" has prevented me from completing a full re-read as I wanted to do. So I mistakenly remembered that Aerys sicced a dragon's flame on Brandon.

Anyways, we have no reason to think Brandon had any of the warging abilities the current Stark kids have, any more than Ned did.

 

[davosj11]

Just finished the series game to dragons. So what better way to play the waiting game than to join up with a forum!

So is Melisandre possibly the worst advisor ever?? Did any of her visions she discussed with Snow actually apply to him?? I'm guessing the 'grey girl on the old horse' vision was a reference to the flux in Mereen etc.? NOT Arya. Leaving Mance possibly trapped in Winterfell with Ramsay??

Hopefully Victarion does better with Maqorro

 

[Keebs411]

Just finished the series game to dragons. So what better way to play the waiting game than to join up with a forum!

So is Melisandre possibly the worst advisor ever?? Did any of her visions she discussed with Snow actually apply to him?? I'm guessing the 'grey girl on the old horse' vision was a reference to the flux in Mereen etc.? NOT Arya. Leaving Mance possibly trapped in Winterfell with Ramsay??

Hopefully Victarion does better with Maqorro

Welcome . You are correct mel does have some trouble reading her visions. But they do come true for the most but just no they was she interpets them. For exsample the girl on a grey old horse doea shoq up. She is basically like a stark cousin. A karstark i belive. She is the girl who arrives because she was fleeing the forced marrige to her uncle. There is a thread on here actually in regaurds to jon and mel specifically if you wanna check it out ,which was actually the thread that 1st brought me to this forum in it ull find alot of dicussion in regaurds to mel her role with jon and how her visions play out

 

[Boaz]

Just finished the series game to dragons. So what better way to play the waiting game than to join up with a forum!

davosj11, Welcome. There is no better way... it is known. I've posted this before, but I'll reiterate here... Enjoy the time between books. Enjoy the anticipation because it won't last. Right now, there are nineteen people viewing the forums of the other forty-four authors on the Chronicles Network... while there are seventy-one viewing currently viewing the Martin forum. That's insane! Tolkien, King, Rowling, Clarke, Herbert, Jordan, MacCaffrey, and Heinlein have sold gajillions of books and had their works turned into megamovies, yet all the action is here. Once this series is done, so too is this forum. So savor the theories, the guessing, and the opinions.

SPOILER ALERT for ADWD.

One thing we do know about Melisandre is that she sees visions concerning people and situationa about which she wants to know. She foresaw Cressen's and Davos' attempts upon her own life. She saw Renly's troops joining Stannis. She most likely saw Ygritte saying "You know nothing, Jon Snow." But she misses things if she's not looking. She missed Edric Storm leaving. She also missed Aemon, Gilly, and Mance's son leaving. She is concerned with Stannis, the Wall, the North, Mance, Jon, The Other, and the current politics of Westeros. So why would she see visions of disease in Mereen?

I loaned my book out so I do not remember her name, but the vision of the girl on the horse was that of the Umber girl fleeing Hothor "Whoresbane" Umber to avoid losing her lands... right? The girl affects the politics of the North, Stannis' alliances, and the Wildlings (I think she marries Styr's son). Melisandre either lies or deludes herself into thinking this girl is Arya and she blames her mistake on her ability to fathom the mind of Rh'llor. She sends Mance to recover this girl, but he misses her trail and picks up on the trail of Jeyne Poole posing as Arya for the benefits of Houses Lannister and Bolton.

At least that was my interpretation...

 

[davosj11]

Thankyou for the welcomes. Its welcoming to break bread with the honored hosts!

But yes I think you are right in regards to Melisandre and her concerns with the North. I think I skipped the obvious clues and looked at the 'Pale Mare' references (maybe due to the alternating chapters between Jon and Dani). I do wonder how Melisandre maintains her confidence in her belief in Stannis as Azor Ahai while at the Wall where her powers are stronger. Although she could well be right, GRRM provides plenty of evidence against Stannis' new title through Aemon's theory.

I also have an inkling that Varys still serves a certain someone besides the realm. It's difficult to see only Varys and Illyrio are behind these grand plans to de-throne the Lannisters. Surely there is a higher power in play. Smells like the work of Doran Martell to me

 

[The Imp]

Thankyou for the welcomes. Its welcoming to break bread with the honored hosts!

But yes I think you are right in regards to Melisandre and her concerns with the North. I think I skipped the obvious clues and looked at the 'Pale Mare' references (maybe due to the alternating chapters between Jon and Dani). I do wonder how Melisandre maintains her confidence in her belief in Stannis as Azor Ahai while at the Wall where her powers are stronger. Although she could well be right, GRRM provides plenty of evidence against Stannis' new title through Aemon's theory.

I also have an inkling that Varys still serves a certain someone besides the realm. It's difficult to see only Varys and Illyrio are behind these grand plans to de-throne the Lannisters. Surely there is a higher power in play. Smells like the work of Doran Martell to me

Welcome to Chrons

Wroking backwards, I disagree with the idea of a greater power controlling Varys and Illyrio. I do think that one or both of them jhas an association with the Faceless Men, maybe even "runs" them, but I don't think there's anyone that's been intorduced in the story so far that has the combination of wealth and political acumen that those two have. The folliwing paragraph suggests that Varys is not working for anyone in the 7 Kindoms (at least)

"I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him."

As for melisandre, I think at some point in aDWD she finally figured out that her God was showing her AA when she was being given visions of Jon Snow. This leads me to believe that not only has she lost confidence in STannis, she will forsake him, and she has already forged an alliance with Jon.