A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[Wiggum]

Quentyn was useless to the story.

He just was.

Unless he goes down in history as Doran's Lark.

 

[Mesanna]

Maybe Quentin's death will have repercussions in future books for Dorne, like maybe Arianne or Trystane will have to do something that Quentin should have done and things will go pear-shaped because of it. We just don't know yet.

By the way Wiggum, great summary of ADWD! I lol'd.

 

[Ursa major]

It will be interesting to see how Doran reacts. Will he see that his caution and long-term planning has come to naught, or will he judge that Quentyn's death shows that behaving rashly leads only to disaster? And will Doran find out about his son's death before** he has to make some or other crucial decision (e.g. supporting Aeron or not)?





** - This is hard to forecast as the order of events, and their respective positions in the timeline, aren't easy to determine. (Having said that, it took Quentyn a long time to get to Meereen, so unless his Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater have access to crows (or something similar), the news will not reach Sunspear for quite a while.)

 

[Tansy]

I think the whole Merenese know was how to put all the pieces into the places GRRM needed them for the next book to progress, maybe it was the timing he had an issue with so had to hold Dani up hence her indicision and bad judgements?

 

[hadd]

This is what I'm confused about too.

Quentyn was made into Martell Texas Toast, Dany left, so did Griff, Tyrion rode a boat then a pig, and nary a Greyjoy made it there.

yay?

Haha, yeah, it's funny that the writer's block George had the most troubles with and worked on the most is the one most of the readers don't like. On the other hand it has always seemed to me that Jon chapters were something he just had to "quickly shovel away".
I hope book 6 shifts away from Meereen rather quickly though, so far the Meereenese "knot" might be the weakest part of the storyline...or at least the most boring bit for me.
I love the descriptions and Dany sacking other cities overseas but a whole book focusing on that one city, with rather static action...Meh.

And I'm really disappointed about no news about Littlefinger or Marwyn. I really hoped Marwyn would be one of the characters thrown into the Meereenese knot.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

You would think for as much time as GRRM spent talking about the 'Meereneese Knot', we would have a clearer idea of what it was.

 

[Seferbo]

My theory on why Quentyn died is that GRRM was trying to recreate the shock of Ned's death. I.e. he spends an entire book on this character only to kill him off. Except that instead of shocking us it kind of just pissed everyone off because now we just see it as a waste of time.
...

With Quentyn we know he really isn't central to the story. We know there are like 18 other Dany suitors out there. We know that if we'd never met him the story wouldn't change a bit. We just don't have any reason to become emotionally invested in him. He's not even particularly likable. So when he dies it's not shocking and certainly running and trying to play with dragons was never going to end well. Therefore, we just get pissed off that our time was wasted with nothing to show for it. Get us out of Meereen, George!

New to posting but I have been reading threads here for the past couple months. Thank you all for getting me through the boring days at work

As for Quentyn Viz, I agree his character may have served in part as another death to "shock" the reader. He did not play as big a role (for the time being) as Ned had, nor were we as attached...

However I must disagree that him dying was only to serve that purpose. Though he isn't central to the story, Dorne is- or at least will be in Westeros. Especially since they remain literally unscathed in the battle for the throne so far (I believe Martel says the only blood spilled was that of the Vipers). My point being (and as mentioned by others) any event, such as a death, that could affect Dorne should not be taken lightly. In a weakened Westeros they remain the only peoples at full strength, not to mention being militarily unoccupied in any other conflicts. Quentyn's death means something, but it really depends how the news comes about. Shed in the wrong light it could mean serious trouble between a Dorne and Dany alliance. If I did not think the Varys-Illerio combo didn't like her I could see them really using this to their advantage to put Aegon on the throne with Dornes support.

As for liking Quentyn, his story, and even Mereene. Well I agree a little. I've never cared much for the hot n spicey Dorne (save for the Viper), nor am I a fan of Middle Eastern/Indian culture so it is sometimes a tedious read. Regardless though the song is of 'Ice and Fire', not 'Ice and Fire only in Westeros'. I'd rather have had Dany back home from the beginning then spend a book amongst primitive horse worshipers but oh well. This whole Mereene experience has no doubt been a valuable learning experience for her. "Lets bring our troops home!" Oh wait this is a UK forum.... hahah but seriously it reminds me of US affairs in the middle east. Its like, we want to do good, but no one wants us there and we aren't doing the best job, but we kinda like being there for their resources, just instead of oil its soldiers (mmm unsullied).

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I think Quentyn's death probably did serve a higher purpose than just shock value, but I'm not sure we needed his POV. We could have learned his comings and goings in Meereen from other POV characters.

If it was for the shock value, well then GRRM failed because (like Viz) I wasn't shocked at all.

And welcome to the Chrons Seferbo!

 

[Seferbo]

Thank you Lady of Winterfell. Fair enough we could have gotten nearly as much about him from another POV. Though that last line of his chapter was almost worth it.

I liked the death not for the shock, but for something normal/expected finally happening. There are so many twists and unexpected last second saves or changes that is nice to see GRRM getting real with at least one significant character. Not to mention there is no more doubt...dragons are serious business.

Ser Robert Strong...?

*Shudders*

The Mountain's body and who's head??

Ned's?! haha if only it wasn't mounted on a spike then sent to Winterfell, though his bones never made it past the Neck which means Howland Reed has them at Greywater Watch? any significance there?

But seriously who did Qyburn have access to in that dungeon? For some reason I assume the head sent to Dorne was legitimately Gregor's, which means Ser Robert Strong has no head or (more likely) he has someone elses. I wouldn't put that past the maester who was stripped of his chain for "immoral research".

 

[Ursa major]

Perhaps the solution was to cut the knot....


I seem to recall that GRRM made some comments about the problem concerned timing. And it may well also concern the size of Essos. Unlike Westeros (south of the Wall, that is), we don't really know how big Essos is. We know that its western shore reaches from directly east of Dorne to directly east of the Fingers, but its extent, east to west, is unknown. We have maps of bits of it, but nothing that links these. Even when Dany was moving about, we didn't get a feel for its true size. And in AGoT, ACoK and ASoS, this didn't matter: we were following Dany and took no particular notice of how her position related to anyone else (and didn't really care much about the time she spent heading this way and that).

But the Meereenese knot involved getting various players into Dany's vicinity in some sort of sequence, and from various start points. That required GRRM to know how far east Meereen is, and how fast various characters can move - over land, down rivers and across the sea - and in a time of conflict. That was GRRM's problem, his "knot". We don't need to know the details of the problem or of his solution, not directly. (And perhaps his solution is something perhaps only he will see in full.) We'll only get to see its consequences, like Quentyn arriving late (appropriately enough) and Marwyn's (apparent) non-appearance in ADWD.

We shouldn't be surprised at this: a lot of what we have seen is a result of Varys's and Littlefinger's pulling of various strings. As has been pointed out, we still don't really know what either of them (or Illyrio or any number of other plotters) is up to.



By the way, Werthead provided a comparison between the size of Westeros and Europe: (http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/Werthead/Maps/WesterosEuropecomparisonsize.jpg). Based on that map, I reckon Westeros is about 4200km (2600 miles), from the Wall to the southern coast of Dorne.

 

[Mesanna]

I think the general assumption is that Ser Robert has no head and you'll never see him take his helmet off. Creeeeepy!

On the Meereense knot, I tend to think that it's what happens in the next book that will show us how GRRM 'untied' it. When you take the timeline into account, only the last two or three hundred pages of ADWD actually moved ahead of the timeline of AFFC, so we're only really starting to see how things will play out. I need to go re-read Barristan Selmy's POVs, since he was supposedly one of the characters GRRM used to move the plot forward. I wonder if there might be any hidden clues as to where the story might be going in there.

Also, welcome Seferbo! Always nice to have a new face in the forums

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Well if the knot was timing and getting the right characters in the right places in relation to Dany, than I see now why he was going to have a time gap between ASOS and ADWD. Assuming he would have kept that gap, those people would be with Dany at the beginning of the book following ASOS (I assume that was originally ADWD)? It would make sense since this book was pretty much a bunch of people traveling to get there, but they still never made it there (aside from Quentyn).

 

[hadd]

I think the general assumption is that Ser Robert has no head and you'll never see him take his helmet off. Creeeeepy!

On the Meereense knot, I tend to think that it's what happens in the next book that will show us how GRRM 'untied' it. When you take the timeline into account, only the last two or three hundred pages of ADWD actually moved ahead of the timeline of AFFC, so we're only really starting to see how things will play out. I need to go re-read Barristan Selmy's POVs, since he was supposedly one of the characters GRRM used to move the plot forward. I wonder if there might be any hidden clues as to where the story might be going in there.

Also, welcome Seferbo! Always nice to have a new face in the forums

Well without Barristan's POV we wouldn't have basically any idea what happened to Quentyn('s body), to Arch and Dink, what the Brazen Beasts were going to do etc.
Also I imagine that there's going to be battle at Meereen's walls and Dany might get there leading a new Khalasar?
That's how it feels like at least right now.

 

[Mesanna]

I so need to read ADWD again. I whizzed through it first time, and it was a lot to take in, so yeah I didn't take in that we got all that from Barristan!

I'm wondering how the Khalasar that Dany meets at the end will feel about her. It seems to go against their traditions to accept her as anything other than the widow of a deceased Khal, who should be sent to live with the crones at that place I can't remember the name of LOL! I suppose the presence of dragons might change a few minds though.

 

[Gazz]

It's been a while since I've posted here, but I'll suggest that this analogy is the best and closest thing for what I felt when reading "A Dance with Dragons".

It was like being at a barbecue with all your best friends. The sun was shining, all of your pals were there, and the atmosphere was all spot on. The host is laughing and joking, and turning over some burgers on a grill, and they look DELICIOUS, and it's fantastic, and you get a beer or two to start, and you're joking, and then the host brings you over some salad, and some sausages. He pretends he's going to take them away, but then gives you them, with a little chuckle, and you laugh a little at the hosts tendency to always pull the same trick (althought you're secretly a little bit tired, it isn't as fun or funny when he does it every single time he pulls a plate over) And sure, they're tasty, but you secretly really just want a burger, but you can wait a little while. They're still simmering, and he makes a little joke and goes back to them and turns them over and you carry on laughing and joking with your friends.

And then the sun goes down, and it's still nice but you wonder when the burgers are going to be brought over. And the host brings you over some more sausages and salad, and yeah, you think they're nice, but all you want now is a f******g burger, and you can smell them, you can hear them SIZZLING, surely they must be ready by now. You finish your sausages and salad, and laugh and joke, and the stars are out, and then you get some more sausages and salad, but you don't want any sausages or salad. In fact, though they're nice, and if they were all you expected, they'd be fine, but the burgers are RIGHT THERE. And then, just as you think you won't get a burger, you finally, finally get one brought over by the host. But all he gives you is a bite, and then you have to go home.

Left me feeling a bit seen off. One burger would have been enough, but all we got was salad and sausages (and maybe a bite at the end).

I'm secretly left in a bit of limbo here. Not really sure where GRRM is going to go with all this, if he is going to go down the main antagonist route after all. There are a lot of factions left to resolve (and a lot of burgers to eat), for instance the factions I can see developing more in the next book are:

1 - the White Walkers. Agenda unknown?
2 - the Northmen, led by Jon Snow (reborn as Azor Azai?)
3 - the Southrons, led by the clergy of the Seven + Cersei + Highgarden.
4 - Aegon and the Golden Company
5 - The Ironmen, Euron + Dragons/actual Kraken
6 - Daenyrs + Khal Phono + a lot of sellswords

Not really rooting for anyone here, but I suspect that the White Walkers might well be tied in with Mance Rayder and the Ironmen, and if they are, they'll be a formiddable pairing.

 

[Wiggum]

Lol, great analogy Gazz.

 

[JagLover]

I see over on the TV forum that GRRM thinks they should devote three seasons to AFFC and ADWD combined. If HBO were foolish enough to do so their viewing figures will be down to only hardcore fans by the end.

If I were them I would combine the two books in one season and cut out all the filler, and most of the new characters who, I doubt, will prove of any major significance in the end. Moreover if WOW has been released by then, bring in the resolution of the Mereen situation to finish the season. Only then will the season come close to matching what has gone before.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I seriously cannot imagine 3 season being needed for AFFC and ADWD. I think 1 season would be sufficient. Although if they wanted to allow Martin more time to write books (before the TV series catches up), then they could possible make it 2.

 

[TPA]

...and yeah, you think they're nice, but all you want now is a f******g burger, and you can smell them, you can hear them SIZZLING, surely they must be ready by now.

OH HOW I CAN IDENTIFY WITH THIS

I mean, the title of the book never even happened in the book.

The winds of winter is going to end with snow finally reaching the neck, and a dream of spring will occur when winter finally sets in.

The next book should be dinner and a movie with dragons, followed by the winds of winter, then winds as solstice is nearing, then winds buried neck deep in snow, and finally a dream of spring will be released about the time my grandchildren are retiring.

 

[Culhwch]

I mean, the title of the book never even happened in the book.

Oh, I don't know, Quentyn had a merry little dance with the dragons. The only problem was, they most definitely took the lead.