A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[Culhwch]

Except Robb marched before Ned was beheaded...

 

[Needle]

Except Robb marched before Ned was beheaded...

Dooh!! Somebody has to catch my stupidest comments!!

Still he may have thought they would be more trouble than they were worth, if he thought of them at all.

 

[Culhwch]

But why would he? Jon didn't think that they would be more trouble than they are worth, and Jon makes the point that he and Robb learnt together from their father and their master-at-arms - you can assume what one knows, the other knows. There has been no indication in the text to this point that they are trouble-makers, land-grabbers, or anything else. In fact, they have been distinctly made out to be honourable, loyal, and fierce fighters. Furthermore, Theo Wull was one of Ned's companions at the Tower of Joy - which I would assume would make him a close companion and confidant, and make the Wulls, at least, close to House Stark, or at the very least signify that Ned called the clans for Robert's Rebellion.

 

[Madeleine]

Robb called the banners, and no doubt he sent ravens to all his most powerful allies, but it wouldn't have been practical to wait for every fighting man in the North to get the message and turn up. The ones far away from Winterfell, especially far to the north, might not have been invited.

 

[Tenesmus]

Just finished... I flip flopped between AFFC and ADWD. Made for a very long read.

-I like how Bran talked to Theon and Jon.
-I did not like how Brienne's cliffhanger was resolved off-screen.
-I would have preferred 2 or 3 Sansa and Brienne chapters to all the Meereen.
-No real resolution of any threads.
-I am glad Theon and Asha are together
-I must have gotten spoiled by Joe Abercrombie.... I really wanted some well developed battle scenes...disappointing becaseu of the possibilities; The Wall, Meereen, Winterfell,
-Nice to see Varys. **smile**
-Happy to see Davos... where did he go?
-Rickon has a reason for existing!
-Asha kicks ass!
-Arya murder MO too obvious, get more cleverer GRRM!!
-Jon Snow...dead? methinks not. That guy with the giant boar showed up for a reason...
-Queen Selyse is a... see you next tuesday
-Ser Kevan... we hardly knew thee....

 

[Wiggum]

Just finished yesterday, been reading through the threads today.

My conclusions:

Robert did a really, really, really bad job in the killing of the Targ clan.

Seriously, an Appalachian mountain man with a mule and a muzzle loader could have done better.

It was.....alright.

Sort of.

I reveled when Dany rode, but he tempered that excitement to tepid by her absence and the overbearing tale of Meereen.

Why Quentyn was a POV is beyond me.

His chapters fit the physical description he was given. Stout, square, plain looking, and in the end, without point.

Jon's last act before his assassination makes absolutely no sense within the framework of the character we've been given up to this point.

I loved what he was doing up until that point, but riding to Winterfell is soooooo out of the loop the carnival car he was strapped into flew off the roller coaster while it jumped the shark.

And if it comes to the fact that Jon conspired with Mel to allow that to happen to he can go all Lightening Lord and be released from his vows, for me, that'll suck.

Do I really want to read about Dany and another Khalasar?

Not really.

It was a good tale in the telling, and enjoyed the read, and was sorry when I was done with it.

But it was a whole lot of going fast to get nowhere.

There's now more Targs than there are viable Baratheons, Starks and Lannisters combined.

Yay?

 

[Needle]

I posted this question in Glamourous Melisandre to no avail. Help me out guys this is making me crazy!

If all the red priests are slaves, and it seems they are, who are they slaves to? Pretty sure Rhallor is not putting up the cash himself! Would slaves be allowed to own slaves, doubt it, that would be really crazy, but if not who do they belong to? Who is buying them? And (insert ominious music here!) why?

 

[MIDNIGHT]

Just re-read Melissandra last night. I was under the impression that they were slaves sold in service to the Red Temple. Owned and devout to the Red Temple.

 

[Wybren]

I enjoyed the book for the most part. I found the first third a little slow to get into but it was happy with it on the whole. I enjoyed Cersei's humiliation and I really enjoyed the Arya and Bran chapters and wished there was more of them. I don't think that Jon will die (yet), I think the knives may miraculously miss his vital organs and he will be saved to fight the others another day, I do think though that his time as Lord Commander of the Night Watch has come to an end. One thing that slightly annoyed me were some proofing errors, like when Kevan was lecturing Cersei about sleeping with her nephew (unless of course Lancel is secretly the child of Tyrion or Jaime). All in all I give it 2 thumbs up.

 

[No One]

Jon's last act before his assassination makes absolutely no sense within the framework of the character we've been given up to this point.

I loved what he was doing up until that point, but riding to Winterfell is soooooo out of the loop the carnival car he was strapped into flew off the roller coaster while it jumped the shark.

And if it comes to the fact that Jon conspired with Mel to allow that to happen to he can go all Lightening Lord and be released from his vows, for me, that'll suck.

I'll go out on a limb and say there's no way Jon planned to get betrayed, slashed and stabbed by his own men.

I know you're not alone in saying his actions seemed far out of character, and I won't argue the point because, to an extent, they were. But it could be said that it was a "last straw" scenario, what with Jon believing Arya to be the last of the Stark children (except for maybe Sansa, but we all know how Sansa looked on Jon and that probably coloured his perception of her too).

As to what Jon was doing up to that point, it was heading to a fairly predictable, classic fantasy scenario - namely, rallying the wildlings to the Night's Watch, later to no doubt be joined by house after house from all over Westeros as the threat of the Others became evident. Throw in a little dragonfire and Jon becoming Neo, and the day is saved. Well that's out the window now, and while I also loved what Jon was doing with the wildlings, I think it's probably for the best.

 

[Ghardison]

the $***s killed kevan. He was the only Lannister i could respect.

 

[Mesanna]

the $***s killed kevan. He was the only Lannister i could respect.

LOL, I felt rather sorry for Kevan at the end, cos I think he was basically a decent guy. He wasn't the ruthless leader that Tywin was, but he was probably a nicer person because of that. I don't think he deserved the end that he got.

But, it will certainly stir the pot some.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I was a little sad to see Kevan go as well. Seemed like one of the better Lannisters. But I did love seeing Varys again, if only for a brief moment.

 

[TPA]

I have a thought or two:

When I was done with AGOT, I thought GRRM decided to go a totally different route with Tyrion than he originally planned. He was vaulting onto his hands and turning flips at the feast at Winterfell. Later he became slow and broken and troubled. I was not the only one who noticed this, as I saw the same comments here. So, it was amusing to see Tyrions antics on the boat cartwheeling and all, then giving the explanation as to how he learned to do that. It was like GRRM reads these boards, saw that loose end, and tied it up.

So, I wonder how much of his plots are derived from here (and other boards).

Well, here's one to tie up...

Dany seems immune to fire. Perhaps it is her Targ blood, but if Targ blood keeps you from getting burned, the why did Jon and Quentyn get burned? Dany has more of the blood of the dragon in her than the other two by a little bit, but the same amount as Viserys, who was burned. How does one become immune to fire in ASOIAF?

There are still plenty of diluted blood Targs out there. Some I have not heard mentioned:
Stannis
Shireen
All Roberts illegits


About Targ blood smoking...
Dany was not mentioned as smoking
Tyrion has bled multiple times
Renly did not smoke (No smoking allowed in the tent)

I also think that GRRM is setting up Dany for another pregnancy, but is there time enough for a child to grow up to be significant to the story line?

 

[Perpetual Man]

I've just finished aDwD and really enjoyed it.

I'm not sure that I would have given it a full mark review, but then a 4 star GRRM book is worth 5 of many others.

I'm still absorbing everything, and didn't really think that there was much to add, but a few things filtered through my head.

I'm not sure about Jon dying, he was one of my favourite characters and to see him dead would be a shame, but at the same time it would be good for there to be a nasty shock, much like Ned dying all the way back in GoT.

It also occurred to me (not looking back now so I might be remembering it all wrong), that at the start of the novel we had the Varamyr hunted down and killed, but trying to save himself by jumping into an animal for the final time. I'm pretty sure he referred to having a number of deaths, but this would be the last one, something to do with his ability to walk in other creatures.

Does this mean that Jon might have more than one life and save himself in a similar way, but in his case it would only be a first 'death' not a final one?

Probably just a coincidence, but something that I noticed (from reading through the threads funnily enough) are that there are a number of characters with hands that are covered, or changed. Jon burned his; Victarion has his burned but improved arm, Connington has the start of disease in his.

Queen Selyse - probably currently my least favourite character - in the sense that I really don't like her (good writing). She seems to be so far up her own... nose that I just want someone to thump her. I just did not know why Jon didn't tell her that he was not subject to Stannis, that the wall was his domain, and she should shut up!

Two general comment to finish with. Although it seems that the book is slow and that nothing really happens (well it does but you know what I mean) is that not simply because it is the central part of the story.

The opening parts are setting everything out as they were and as things fall apart we see things develop giving a lot of action and excitement, but now we've reached the middle bit where everything set up has to be head toward the end, and the middle books are the rotation toward that, slower and with lesser events as all the pieces are moved into the position they need to be for the end?

 

[Perpetual Man]

Sorry about the double post but I thought I'd keep this last bit separate: Madcap Theory

One other thing that I thought about while reading this book was that although it is well written, the characters are superb, events shocking with all the undercurrents and sub-plots enthralling the reader, what is the over all objective of the story?

If you take a few other series, LotR is to see Sauron overthrown/destroyed, the WoT is to overcome the Dark One and start the Wheel turning again rather than the pattern unravelling; Thomas Covenant is about facing down and defeating Lord Foul.

Put into this context what is the overall objective of aSoIaF? It could easily be just a stunning display of political machinations and the consequences of the said, with the final reward of discovering just who will finally claim the throne and bring stability to the kingdom.

But one thin that GRRM has shown us is that within the context of the novel there is a lot of grim realism. How many people, when reading (or watching) GoT for the first time cottoned on that Ned was the lead/hero character and this was going to be his story, only to have expectation literally beheaded toward the end of the book?

In the real world it is easy to forget how insignificant peoples dreams and schemes can be - can you imagine all the intrigue and machinations that swam through Pompeii, until it was nicely discovered that Vesuvius didn't give squat didly about all that and wiped everything of the map with a nice bi bang. No one really saw it coming.

Throughout aSoIaF, we are told that Winter is Coming. That people don't seem to remember how bad it can be, and that this one could be one of the worst in a long while.
We are shown haw terrible the White Walkers can be, and that there are worse things beyond the wall. The winter is the real threat, the dark lord as it were...

The only people who are prepared to stand against it and take it seriously are the Watch, and it is something that Jon begins to see in his time there.

Everyone else so caught up in their own schemes that they seem to view the Wall as a legendary anachronistic curiosity; the castles are crumbling, no one is seriously sent to take the black outside of a few criminals and ******* sons.

Jon does his best to hold the Wall, but events conspire against him, and he is stabbed/killed/wounded for his troubles. Without his gathered faction splinter and fall and then when winter falls so does the wall and through it comes frozen hell.

Suddenly everyone's schemes and plans mean nothing and they have to stand against the common foe: Winter.

And there is very little they can do...

Except elsewhere, we have the Dragons and there near unquenchable heat, perhaps the only things that can stand against the cold.

It is called A Song of Ice and Fire after all...

Of course it's just a bizarre long winded thought, and it might seem a bit of a let down if something like that happened, with all the intrigue and deviousness gone. (Although it would't really as you'd still have all the enmity there as the characters tried to work together...)

Just, as I say, a mad thought...

 

[Jaqen H'gar]

Dany seems immune to fire. Perhaps it is her Targ blood, but if Targ blood keeps you from getting burned, the why did Jon and Quentyn get burned? Dany has more of the blood of the dragon in her than the other two by a little bit, but the same amount as Viserys, who was burned. How does one become immune to fire in ASOIAF?


I think the concept of not getting burned was not the Targaryen blood, but more of an indicator that Dany was "The Dragon", not viserys. Viserys blood was just as pure a dany's, plus all of those Targaryen's that died in the fire at summerhall when Rhaegar was born, and that targaryen that drank wildfire. It is not being a targaryen that makes one immune to dragons, it is being connected to dragons, and Dany is the first Targaryen in a while to have that connection. I bet if you put a candle to aegon's arm, it would burn. Not so with Daenaerys . . . It is known

 

[Jaqen H'gar]

I think the Jon story could continue in a couple of ways, because there is really no way that he is going the way of his father.

Melisandre is very powerful. Thoros revived Beric by accident the first time. Mel knows what she is doing. I'm sure she has a way to either heal him with fire, or bring him back to his original self somehow. Beric being revived was just to introduce the readers and get them used to the concept of people coming back from the dead.

Plus, think about it, the commander of the Night's Watch, reborn from fire, is pretty much the perfect way to combat those white walkers and wights, men reborn from ice.

Also, melisandre keeps saying that whenever she tries to see stannis, the fires show her Jon Snow. She asks to see Azor Ahai reborn, expecting Stannis, but sees Jon. I don't know how she doesn't see this, but this is a fairly obvious sign that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, and Longclaw will become Lightbringer, and this time will actually give off heat. A Fire sword is the perfect thing to kill a white walker

 

[Needle]

Very nice mad thinking PM! I think you pretty much nailed it.

Once upon a time, as the saying goes, men knew what the Wall was and why it was really there, thus the Wall was a noble calling and a honorably place to be.

As time passed those who didn't wish to be ruled by kings joined those who had stayed beyond the wall. So folks began to view it as just a way to keep the wildlings out. They forgot what it was really there for. Big mistake! As someone (can't remember who) states in the book "You don't build a wall 700 feet high (and laced with spells) to keep out a few raiders with stone axes!"

We as readers love the people involved, yet we constantly see how little their hopes and dreams matter in the grand scheme of the realm. I feel all the battles between houses throughout the realm only sets the stage for them to have to get together when the real enemy shows up. If they don't they will not survive, not only for reasons of numbers but different people know different things they will all need to know.

Soon they will all truly believe that Winter is Coming, and what that really means for the human race.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I don't think Dany will be going to Westeros in the next book. Not directly at least. She must still pass beneath the shadow, which I think we can take to the Shadow that Asshai is allegedly next to. I'm still curious what the hell this Shadow thing is.

Perhaps she will sail around the globe, landing on the west coast of Westeros?

I missed Sansa. I was hoping to see some of Petyr's machinations in the Vale. Surely they've managed to get her marriage annulled by now. Oh and I suppose little lord Robert has to die too. That wouldn't take much. There was actually one point in the book where Haldon the Halfmaester remarked how no one had heard anything about the Vale. We need to know what's going on up there.