A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[C Of K]

I felt the book was good, but too long. I could tell how bad Dany's situation was after her first chapter was over. Her story could have been condensed, and the entire Mereneese situation simplified. I don't think the three Dornish men were interesting enough, nor sufficiently integrated into the overall story enough to warrant so many POV chapters. I understand the need for their characters, but I also understand the need for Stannis. Still, we've never once seen the world through Stannis' eyes. I think Stannis, by the way, is perhaps the most interesting character left. I pray to the Lord of Light that he isn't truly dead. The way George spread rumor of Stannis' fall in the same chapter that he "killed" Jon was somewhat numbing.


Speaking of which, It seems like every time Ned or one of his "sons" get it into their head to begin personally executing people, it isn't long before they buy it themselves. Regardless of what happens to Jon in the future, I think his time as Lord Commander is over. If he is resurrected, I would think it would be done in secret, but regardless of all that, there's going to be chaos on the wall for a while. Queen's men, wildlings, and black brother's don't mix. With Jon's misfortune, and rumors of Stannis' death, the only thing that will keep all three groups from having it out will be an immediate assault on the wall by the living dead.

In contrast to the three Dornish men, Aegon and Griff were great additions to the story. They shuffle up the deck a little, sure, but through them George allowed us a small glimpse into Varys' character, which was welcome.

Ser Robert Strong...?

*Shudders*

Lastly, the scene in the pits gave me goose bumps.

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

Mel is not at all who she seems, the ruby at her throat is a glamour spell just like maynce had cast on him, this would explain the lack of tattoos.

Side note doesn't the horn Mel burned sound a lot like Dragon binder?

 

[KidMT]

I haven't sytematically reviewed them, so I have no theories about what they might mean but I can't shake the feeling that the seeming nonsense that we hear from Patches, Princess Shireen Fool, is loaded with real meaning. I just can't figure out what it is. Also Melisandre was unnerved by him.

What's going on there?

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

The ugly little girl
(Page 845 H/C)
Sailors wife tale "That is the house of the Great Shepard. Three-headed trios that has a tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third,I don't know what the second head is supposed to do."

Triadic ("forming a group of three"): a triad, three entities inter-related in some way (life, death, rebirth, for example, or triplet children of a deity) and always or usually associated with one another or appearing together.

Now would Dany count as being rebirth, born again in the fire.
Jon would be death, one of his POV he talks about fighting armoured in black ice with a flaming sword, plus he dies so he could be like cold hands. Another clue his direwolf is named Ghost.
Bran is life what says life more than a tree, his direwolf is named Summer, That screams life to me. Also if one of the dragon binder horns was destroyed by Mel, he could warg into the last dragon so it wouldn't need a rider.

 

[Mesanna]

I haven't sytematically reviewed them, so I have no theories about what they might mean but I can't shake the feeling that the seeming nonsense that we hear from Patches, Princess Shireen Fool, is loaded with real meaning. I just can't figure out what it is. Also Melisandre was unnerved by him.

What's going on there?

Yeah I wondered about that too. His nonsensical chatter gets mentioned so often, that you can't help but be suspicious. But what is actually means ... I have no idea!

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I think Patchface's phrases do have some importance to them. I thought while reading one of them I made some sense of it, but of course now I can't remember what it was or where to find it!

 

[Bazza]

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

One of his ramblings a book prior to the Red Wedding. He obviously has some prophetic abilities. But I can't make sense of anything else he says. He also keeps talking about how the shadows are coming to dance, and to stay.

"That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood."

I remember in ADWD Melisandre also talking about how the Other has agents about, fulfilling his will whether they know it or not. Is he one of these? Maybe he's a window into the Other's plans? Who else could be agents of the Other?

 

[Mesanna]

Shadows coming to dance only makes me think about Mel's shadow "babies". Maybe Mel doesn't like Patchface because he might accidentally blurt out something about her. Not that anyone would take him seriously anyway.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Perhaps a Patchface thread is in order, to keep track of these things he says and what they could mean.

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

One of his ramblings a book prior to the Red Wedding. He obviously has some prophetic abilities. But I can't make sense of anything else he says. He also keeps talking about how the shadows are coming to dance, and to stay.

Thank you Bazza! I think this is the one I was talking about above.

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

Will there be an Ice dragon? It is mentions at least 4 times in the book.

 

[viZion]

Will there be an Ice dragon? It is mentions at least 4 times in the book.

Yep, the one that was living under Winterfell and left when Winterfell burned.

 

[Gry Wnd]

Good point, I remember thinking that it seemed a little cold in winterfell considering there is supposed to be hot springs under the castle.

Perhaps the dragon was heating winterfell...
Does anyone remember specifics proving no more hot springs? Wasn't the pool frozen in front of the weirwood?

 

[TPA]

Very interesting ice dragon theory!

And a dragon at Dragonstone!?

Has anyone discussed a theory that Bran is destined to be stuck in a cave forever with werewood roots growing through him? Makes sense since he cant walk anyway.

 

[JagLover]

It was a better book than AFFC but I am a bit dissappointed with a ADWD

ADWD & AFFC are one book split into two and yet over their 2,000 pages they seem to cover less ground than any of the previous three books.

One basic flaw I think is the original intention to have a time jump. It seems to me that was how the series was supposed to go as originally written because the stark children were so young. Only Robb and Jon really old enough to play a full role in the events.

A five year time jump would have made Arya 16/17, Sansa a bit older, Bran a little younger and Rickon could have done something other than having tantrums.

Without that jump we are left with a holding pattern, with many new POV characters brought in to add life to this but often it is so much sound and fury signifying little.

The east seems underwitten and a bit dull because it was always a periphial part of the story, with the main battle to be fought in Westeros. You can criticise Robert Jordan for allot of things but at least he didn't spread his story over multiple continents, other lands are talked about, but not seen.

The main purpose of the east in the first three books was as a place for Dany to learn how to be a queen, as she marched towards Westeros. Once the marching, and the sacking of cities stopped, it proved a rather dull place to be.

In order to stay in the holding pattern Dany needed to become very stupid, and others to spend a long time travelling there and do nothing when they arrived.

I spent nearly ten years looking forward to Tyrion meeting Dany and it still hasn't happened yet.

Anyway, the children are growing and time has passed, how much I am not sure, so hopefully the story can get moving again.

 

[hadd]

I don't think Dany will be going to Westeros in the next book. Not directly at least. She must still pass beneath the shadow, which I think we can take to the Shadow that Asshai is allegedly next to. I'm still curious what the hell this Shadow thing is.

Perhaps she will sail around the globe, landing on the west coast of Westeros?

I missed Sansa. I was hoping to see some of Petyr's machinations in the Vale. Surely they've managed to get her marriage annulled by now. Oh and I suppose little lord Robert has to die too. That wouldn't take much. There was actually one point in the book where Haldon the Halfmaester remarked how no one had heard anything about the Vale. We need to know what's going on up there.

I agree. I would have loved more info about some of the loose ends in AFFC (Marwyn, Brienne etc).

Overall I enjoyed the read. The slower pace was quite enjoyable for a while actually. I admit some chapters might have been a tad bit boring and repetitive (everything that has something to do with Martells) but as someone said the Griff storyline was brilliant. The part when Connington takes his glove off to look at his hand was a brilliant ending for a chapter (would be cool if they'd finish a TV series episode with that moment too, it felt exactly like a suitable one).
I expected a bit more of the Meereenese knot but I suppose it's one of cases that what seems simple to the reader is hard for the writer and vice versa.
Also I never expected that I'd start to dislike Daenerys but I think that's just great writing. Would be boring if all she done would make the readers Aww or You go girl!

Oh well, back to lurking and rereading the 5 books from time to time now I guess.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

What exactly was the 'Meerenese Knot'? Was it something specific in the storyline, or just that GRRM couldn't decide what to do with Dany, or how to get her back to Westeros?

 

[hadd]

What exactly was the 'Meerenese Knot'? Was it something specific in the storyline, or just that GRRM couldn't decide what to do with Dany, or how to get her back to Westeros?

Well as far as I can understand the Meereenese knot was everything about the storyline that takes part over the sea. In what order everything takes place, who gets there first, how does it all match up... Stuff like that.
Also I think Barristan's POV was one of the things that "solved" the knot, meaning that through Barristan's POV the reader should get some insight why and how the war at Meereen's walls starts?

That's just my view on it. I'm not sure what was the bit exactly that George found difficult about the situation in Meereen though.

 

[Wiggum]

That's just my view on it. I'm not sure what was the bit exactly that George found difficult about the situation in Meereen though.

This is what I'm confused about too.

Quentyn was made into Martell Texas Toast, Dany left, so did Griff, Tyrion rode a boat then a pig, and nary a Greyjoy made it there.

yay?

 

[C Of K]

This is what I'm confused about too.

Quentyn was made into Martell Texas Toast, Dany left, so did Griff, Tyrion rode a boat then a pig, and nary a Greyjoy made it there.

yay?

My sentiments exactly. I know I said this in another post, but I think the whole knot was just a result of George trying too hard. It seems to me that the real problem he's having with Meereen is coming up with ways and reasons to keep Dany from making it to Westeros before he's ready to place her there.

Quentyn is the only one who made it to Dany, and the only result of his making it was his death and his freeing of her dragons, and the possible fulfillment of a prophecy that few of us even considered a prophecy to begin with. (Though that last one was welcome, and clever if it is indeed the case.)

 

[viZion]

My theory on why Quentyn died is that GRRM was trying to recreate the shock of Ned's death. I.e. he spends an entire book on this character only to kill him off. Except that instead of shocking us it kind of just pissed everyone off because now we just see it as a waste of time.

Ned's death was shocking because he's such a central character to the story and, of course, up until he died central characters in fantasy books rarely died before the end of the story. And even if they do die, they certainly don't die so suddenly and pointlessly as he did. That's what made it shocking.

With Quentyn we know he really isn't central to the story. We know there are like 18 other Dany suitors out there. We know that if we'd never met him the story wouldn't change a bit. We just don't have any reason to become emotionally invested in him. He's not even particularly likable. So when he dies it's not shocking and certainly running and trying to play with dragons was never going to end well. Therefore, we just get pissed off that our time was wasted with nothing to show for it. Get us out of Meereen, George!

Sorry, that was so long. I've been wanting to get that off my chest for awhile.