(ADWD Spoilers), Alert, Jon Snow

[garion77]

I think Jon had to die so he could infiltrate the Other's camp as an undead. I think he will use one of the three bodies he dragged in from the woods and warg into one of them. It was some reason those three bodies didn't turn to undead... Jon will do the Others like he did the Wildlings. He will blend into their camps and figure out how to stop them. That is the only way I see the NW stopping the Others. We know the wall will not fall. Jon set to many wheels in motion to allow that to happen like setting up loans with the Iron Bank. Then he is making the NW for the first time self sufficient. With the wildling, the NW will have new recruits on a normal basis and truly become independent. I believe in the end the NW will hold the wall and save the world and no one will know who saved their butts. The murders, rapist, and thieves will end up saving everyone and no songs will be written about them. That just seem very GRRM...

 

[mtzGr]

I think Jon is really a dragon, discuss.

 

[juleska]

As in an actual dragon? Not just a Targ?

 

[juleska]

Oh and by the way, welcome garion77.

The only issue I can see with your theory (apart from the fact that I don't want Jon to be a wight!) is how does Jon become an Other? I thought to become a wight one had to be murdered by an Other.

 

[Ursa major]

Hi, garion77, and welcome to the Chrons.

Given that some of us are already allowing ourselves to believe that Jon may have warged into a reanimated (by Mel) dead body, your suggestion cannot be dismissed out of hand. Some questions remain, though. How do the Others see a reanimated corpse? Does it seem, to them, to be like any other corpse, or not. If not, they may be suspicious and refuse to turn the reanimated body into a wight. Even if they do (knowingly or not), it begs the question of who has ultimate control, the Other or, say, Jon. And of what does the control of the Others consist? Is a form of crude warging involved? Or are the wights just given a desire to kill and a target (which may simply be "human")?

Without knowing the answer to these questions, it's hard to know whether your suggestion is viable. Then again, perhaps we cannot know that it isn't.

 

[mtzGr]

As in an actual dragon? Not just a Targ?

Yes, an actual dragon.

 

[Culhwch]

I think Jon is really a unicorn, and Davos will discover the truth on Skagos...

I can't see Jon warging into a long-dead corpse, but I'm of the school of thought that he is either dead dead, or not mortally wounded. Urse, I haven't been following the discussion here of late - who is this reanimated corpse, then?

 

[garion77]

Thanks for the welcome everyone! It's greatly appreciated.

Why I think Jon need to find away into the Other's camp is because that's the only way he will get enough information to defeat them. I really don't see any other way of defeating the Others. And Dany coming to save Jon with her Dragons just don't do him justice. It will be Jon/AA who defeat the Others. That's his main oponents in the entire series. That's what the wall was truly built to stop... Not the Wildlings. Over time people just forgot the purpose of the NW. That's why GRRM sent Stannis from the wall to fight the Boltons. Jon and the NW will do their jobs. They just need to figure out how... And Jon will get in the Others camp and figure out who controls them and what's their true purpose. I think we will finally get the Others POV for the first time through Jon. Like we got Mance POV through Jon.

And Jon body will not die completely. For him to become AA, he must die and be risen again through fire. That's why Mel is still at the wall. Some people think when he is risen again he will be excused from his vows to the NW... Nope... He will be bound even more to those vows... The seven kingdoms have enough lords and kings... Now they need a heroe... That's where Jon come in...

 

[Ursa major]

Urse, I haven't been following the discussion here of late - who is this reanimated corpse, then?

One of the bodies kept in the ice cells. The idea comes from Needle's theory, outlined in the Jon Snow thread, where she suggests what may really be happening in Jon's last chapter.

The relevant part of the theory is this:

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convenient body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him.

The complete theory can be found here: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1528838-post223.html.

 

[The Imp]

Oh and by the way, welcome garion77.

The only issue I can see with your theory (apart from the fact that I don't want Jon to be a wight!) is how does Jon become an Other? I thought to become a wight one had to be murdered by an Other.

I've always thought that any dead body would do. I think of the Others as necromancers, and if that's what they are there should be no restrictions on how a body got "deaded". I can't think of an example (if there is one) though. It wasn't clear if thistle was killed by an Other or just bled to death (in the Varamyr prologue).

 

[The Imp]

Yes, an actual dragon.

If you REALLY believe this back it up I read it as a snarky shot at the OP, which is kind of out of bounds on this forum.

 

[The Imp]

I think Jon had to die so he could infiltrate the Other's camp as an undead. I think he will use one of the three bodies he dragged in from the woods and warg into one of them. It was some reason those three bodies didn't turn to undead... Jon will do the Others like he did the Wildlings. He will blend into their camps and figure out how to stop them. That is the only way I see the NW stopping the Others. We know the wall will not fall. Jon set to many wheels in motion to allow that to happen like setting up loans with the Iron Bank. Then he is making the NW for the first time self sufficient. With the wildling, the NW will have new recruits on a normal basis and truly become independent. I believe in the end the NW will hold the wall and save the world and no one will know who saved their butts. The murders, rapist, and thieves will end up saving everyone and no songs will be written about them. That just seem very GRRM...

Welcome to the forum.

I think there are holes in your theory. The first is, the dead that the others raise are under their control. Would Jon be able to overcome this beacuse he has an amazingly strong force of will, or just because he's Jon Snow and he's destined for greater things (AA)?

Second, we learned in the varamyr chapter (i plan on starting a thread about this) that a Warg's ability dies when the Warg's body dies, in other words, if Jon's body is dead he's a permanent un-dead.

Third, and please don't take this the wrong way, I don't think it's an elegant enough twist to be worthy of GRRM. I also think that a proper foundation hasn't been set, other than the Others can raise the dead and Jon might be dead.

I don't think your theory is impossible, but I'd be very disappointed in GRRM if it turned out to be true.

 

[garion77]

One of the bodies kept in the ice cells. The idea comes from Needle's theory, outlined in the Jon Snow thread, where she suggests what may really be happening in Jon's last chapter.

The relevant part of the theory is this:




The complete theory can be found here: The issue I have with this theory is Jon had locked Ghost up in his room because the wolf was acting crazy just before the murder. I think Ghost would have smelled through the glamour if it wasn't really Jon but one of the frozen corpse. So it had to be Jon because Ghost sensed what was going to happen to Jon. Just like Graywind sinced Robb was in trouble. Ghost started acting the same way. Even when Mel was warning Jon about his danger, he never believed her completely. So I don't see why from no where he would let her glamour him to trick his brothers.

And I think what happened had to happen... Jon was ready to make too big mistakes... He was going on a suicide mission to save the wildlings from the Others and then he was going to drag the NW into a personal war for the first time in it history... In one of the earlier books GRRM stated not even when the NW was ten thousand strong their command refuse to help aid his own brother... And here Jon rushing to declare war on the Warden of the North? That would have been doom for the NW.

 

[Ursa major]

There is still a debate about when the plan suggested by Needle was put into action. I'm in the "Jon was still Jon until late on" camp. I think the arrival of the letter sparked the change. We then get these passages:

[...]"Melisandre . . . look to the skies, she said." He set the letter down. "A raven in a storm. She saw this coming." When you have your answers, send to me.

(My bolding.)



A few paragraphs later:

"I think we had better change the plan," Jon Snow said."

They talked for the best part of two hours.

Horse and Rory had replaced Fulk and Mully at the armoury door with the change of watch With me," Jon told them, when the time came. Ghost would have followed as well, but as the wolf came padding after them, Jon grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and wrestled him back inside.

That's the last we see of Ghost in the book, I believe.

I believe that the switch, if it occurred at all, was planned and performed in those two hours.

 

[garion77]

I don't think Jon even realize he is a Warg... It seem he just think he is having wolf dreams. Bran know how to warg but Jon don't know how. Even the warg in the beginning of the book said Jon didn't know what he were... It wouldn't make sense for Jon to know how to warg unless he find himself in danger. It's usually out of fear that most untrained wargs unknowingly take another body... And I think when Jon was attacked, he automaticly starting warging because he couldn't grab his sword for some reason. And something else happened also when he was on the ground... He felt ice against his face I think... Wasn't the corpses in an ice cell?

Some people think the blades had poison or something... But that don't make sense... What stab someone to death with a poison dagger? It's a lot more cleaver ways to use poison...

 

[The Imp]

I don't think Jon even realize he is a Warg... It seem he just think he is having wolf dreams. Bran know how to warg but Jon don't know how. Even the warg in the beginning of the book said Jon didn't know what he were... It wouldn't make sense for Jon to know how to warg unless he find himself in danger. It's usually out of fear that most untrained wargs unknowingly take another body... And I think when Jon was attacked, he automaticly starting warging because he couldn't grab his sword for some reason. And something else happened also when he was on the ground... He felt ice against his face I think... Wasn't the corpses in an ice cell?

Some people think the blades had poison or something... But that don't make sense... What stab someone to death with a poison dagger? It's a lot more cleaver ways to use poison...

No one taught Arya how to warg into a cat, yet she was able to do it easily, and without her life being in danger. Bran was able to slip into hodor without being taught. There is no doubt in my mind that Jon is a powerful warg, and fully able and capable of warging into anything he feels like.

I'll also reiterate that those bodies were kept on ice for a long time, and that Jon's reason for keeping them was a half truth. I beleive that he wanted to use them to practice warging into people. you need only look at the Varamyr prolgue for answers

 

[TK-421]

What?

There is not one word in the inner most thoughts of Jon that we were privy to in ADWD that would lead us to believe that he was keeping those bodies for that reason.

Jon may have been blind to the threat against him in the Watch but I don't think he would of risked that much to warging into dead brothers.

 

[garion77]

No one taught Arya how to warg into a cat, yet she was able to do it easily, and without her life being in danger. Bran was able to slip into hodor without being taught. There is no doubt in my mind that Jon is a powerful warg, and fully able and capable of warging into anything he feels like.

I'll also reiterate that those bodies were kept on ice for a long time, and that Jon's reason for keeping them was a half truth. I beleive that he wanted to use them to practice warging into people. you need only look at the Varamyr prolgue for answers

I think its rules to warging or the wargs would rule the world if they can just warg into anything or anyone. Why not warg into a king or lord? It's rules to warging like in all things. Warging is like the Jedi mind trick I believe... It only can take over weak minded creatures. I don't think you can warg a Dragon. I am sure it was wargs when Aegon invaded the seven kingdoms. They fell to the Dragon's fire like everyone else who opposed them.

Remember, the wildlings had some of the strongest wargs. And they still couldn't take the wall... Why not just warg into someone behind the wall and get them to open the gates? What make ASOIAF so good is you must win with your mind not some magic tricks and God like powers. It's mortals vs mortals... GRRM said that in an interview. He don't want anyone to be too powerful to where you they are boring. That's why Dany have small Dragons and having problems controlling them.

It's no way the Dragons will be big enough by the end of the series to destroy entire armies. And thank goodness because then the series will be like every other fantasy series...

 

[Ursa major]

There probably are rules, but as ASoIaF is POV-driven, we will neither know those rules, nor the boundaries they describe, until those boundaries are met and someone fails to breach them.

As it happens, we have seen someone try to take over a properly functioning, living human. Varamyr tried to take over Thistle, but he failed; Thistle preferred to die than become Varamyr's host. Bran took over Hodor, but Hodor is not exactly willful or bright, so Bran was able to achieve the (temporary) possession. So it seems to me that the warging into an opponent on the other side of a magically enhanced wall would be far more difficult than anything Varamyr tried, let alone achieved.


Back to The case we're discussing here: this involves Jon possibly taking over a reanimated corpse. That may be within his capabilities, or it may not. We won't know for sure for quite a while.

 

[garion77]

There probably are rules, but as ASoIaF is POV-driven, we will neither know those rules, nor the boundaries they describe, until those boundaries are met and someone fails to breach them.

As it happens, we have seen someone try to take over a properly functioning, living human. Varamyr tried to take over Thistle, but he failed; Thistle preferred to die than become Varamyr's host. Bran took over Hodor, but Hodor is not exactly willful or bright, so Bran was able to achieve the (temporary) possession. So it seems to me that the warging into an opponent on the other side of a magically enhanced wall would be far more difficult than anything Varamyr tried, let alone achieved.


Back to The case we're discussing here: this involves Jon possibly taking over a reanimated corpse. That may be within his capabilities, or it may not. We won't know for sure for quite a while.

I think the only way to win against the Others is for Jon to find out what's driving them... And the only way to do that is to live or be undead amoung them...lol And why mention the three bodies in the ice cell if nothing going to come of it? It's a reason why those bodies are mentioned...