(ADWD Spoilers), Alert, Jon Snow

[mtzGr]

If you REALLY believe this back it up I read it as a snarky shot at the OP, which is kind of out of bounds on this forum.

You read it true--I'll remember to keep my comments politically correct.

 

[Ursa major]

I think what The Imp, and I, and the Chrons as a whole, want is good manners and posters who "play the ball, not the man". That way we might just make some progress in determining where ASoIaF is going and (in those cases where it isn't entirely clear) what may already have happened.

 

[mtzGr]

Then in the nature of friendship I will play ball (though we've kind of beat the argument already in the other thread).

I do not think--while I will admit that it could be possible--that there are any grounds for these theories of Jon assuming another body before his death, or after it, or any scenario where he is not actually in the action of that last scene (nothing in the prologue suggests this, it only suggests that this could be done). The last chapter to me, as with all his chapters in ADWD, were very straight-forward. This is just not something that Jon's character would do. It is a pretty radical departure from the way he deals with a situation, and I don't think any amount of writing GRRM could do would warrant changing the entire nature of a character.

It would be like Jon pulling off his face and revealing himself to actually be Moonboy, dancing around saying "Gotcha!" (that's my take anyway). I think it is premature to assume Jon is dead, and more likely that although he will probably be injured in the beginning of the next book, he was saved by Mel and Ghost, or any one of the other true friends he has on the wall. Just because Bowen and another steward attacked Jon, does not mean the entire Night's Watch is against him. Horse and Rory were with him; did they just start killing Jon too cause they saw Bowen stab him? I doubt it.

Edit: Also, I found this: "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains? That was written as they were running to the tower where Jon would be stabbed.

 

[Culhwch]

I think what The Imp, and I, and the Chrons as a whole, want is good manners and posters who "play the ball, not the man". That way we might just make some progress in determining where ASoIaF is going and (in those cases where it isn't entirely clear) what may already have happened.

Or, in aSoIaF terms, play like a Stark, not a Frey.

 

[mtzGr]

Or, in aSoIaF terms, play like a Stark, not a Frey.

In those terms, you could debate whether it is better to be honorable or shrewd; most of the Starks are dead.

 

[Culhwch]

Not on these boards. Most of the Starks are still here - the Freys get banned.

 

[Needle]

First let me say, Welcome garion! Now down to this discussion!

I think Jon had to die so he could infiltrate the Other's camp as an undead. I think he will use one of the three bodies he dragged in from the woods and warg into one of them. It was some reason those three bodies didn't turn to undead... Jon will do the Others like he did the Wildlings. He will blend into their camps and figure out how to stop them. That is the only way I see the NW stopping the Others. We know the wall will not fall. Jon set to many wheels in motion to allow that to happen like setting up loans with the Iron Bank. Then he is making the NW for the first time self sufficient. With the wildling, the NW will have new recruits on a normal basis and truly become independent. I believe in the end the NW will hold the wall and save the world and no one will know who saved their butts. The murders, rapist, and thieves will end up saving everyone and no songs will be written about them. That just seem very GRRM...

I agree with some of your points here, I do not think the Wall will fall, if it does I believe the Others will be unstoppable. And yes wildlings and criminals will play a large, unsung part in saving the realm!

However I do not think Jon would use the bodies to infiltrate the Others simply because I don't see how it could work. The others are under the control of someone or something. They do not speak and they are none too bright. So the control of them is much more direct, has to be some form of mind to mind control or hive like thought. Jon would not be privy to this just because he was walking around in a dead body.

The complete theory can be found here: The issue I have with this theory is Jon had locked Ghost up in his room because the wolf was acting crazy just before the murder. I think Ghost would have smelled through the glamour if it wasn't really Jon but one of the frozen corpse. So it had to be Jon because Ghost sensed what was going to happen to Jon. Just like Graywind sinced Robb was in trouble. Ghost started acting the same way. Even when Mel was warning Jon about his danger, he never believed her completely. So I don't see why from no where he would let her glamour him to trick his brothers.

This of course is my theory we speak of here, I really think the transformation took place in those missing 2 hours. Ghost acting up early on only proves he knew the same thing Mel did, that Jon was in grave danger. When we finally see Jon leave to go to the hall, Ghost tries to bolt, I believe to go to the real Jon wherever he is at this point. This body may look like Jon to people but certainly not to Ghost!

Once Jon receives the letter he knows and finally believes Mel really can see!

I don't think however that the glamour was to "trick his brothers" he does not know who the danger is that is why he needs to draw them out, it could be brothers, it could be queen's men, it could be wildlings. The only one's he trusts with what is about to happen are Mel and Tormound.

No one taught Arya how to warg into a cat, yet she was able to do it easily, and without her life being in danger. Bran was able to slip into hodor without being taught. There is no doubt in my mind that Jon is a powerful warg, and fully able and capable of warging into anything he feels like.

I'll also reiterate that those bodies were kept on ice for a long time, and that Jon's reason for keeping them was a half truth. I beleive that he wanted to use them to practice warging into people. you need only look at the Varamyr prolgue for answers

Yes warging seems to come very easily to the Starks! And as I have said before Jon knows way more about what is possible than Bran or Arya. I will have to think about the practicing thing!

I think its rules to warging or the wargs would rule the world if they can just warg into anything or anyone. Why not warg into a king or lord? It's rules to warging like in all things. Warging is like the Jedi mind trick I believe... It only can take over weak minded creatures. I don't think you can warg a Dragon. I am sure it was wargs when Aegon invaded the seven kingdoms. They fell to the Dragon's fire like everyone else who opposed them.

Remember, the wildlings had some of the strongest wargs. And they still couldn't take the wall... Why not just warg into someone behind the wall and get them to open the gates? What make ASOIAF so good is you must win with your mind not some magic tricks and God like powers. It's mortals vs mortals... GRRM said that in an interview. He don't want anyone to be too powerful to where you they are boring. That's why Dany have small Dragons and having problems controlling them.
.

This is true, warging into a regular person is difficult, dangerous and seemingly all but impossible, a dead body is another story Hodor is bright when compared to one!

I do not think--while I will admit that it could be possible--that there are any grounds for these theories of Jon assuming another body before his death, or after it, or any scenario where he is not actually in the action of that last scene (nothing in the prologue suggests this, it only suggests that this could be done). The last chapter to me, as with all his chapters in ADWD, were very straight-forward. This is just not something that Jon's character would do. It is a pretty radical departure from the way he deals with a situation, and I don't think any amount of writing GRRM could do would warrant changing the entire nature of a character.

It would be like Jon pulling off his face and revealing himself to actually be Moonboy, dancing around saying "Gotcha!" (that's my take anyway).
.

I will say again GRRM has us trained to believe we see all in a person's POV even though he has repeatedly shown us this is not true! Besides which Jon is in the action, it is his mind, his thoughts regardless of the physical body he is in!

And as far as Gotcha! GRRM is the king! Think back to head coming off, Arya going blind, Jaime's hand, I could go on and on!

 

[mtzGr]

I will say again GRRM has us trained to believe we see all in a person's POV even though he has repeatedly shown us this is not true!

"Because he has done something like this before," is not a sufficient enough reason to explain completely altering the personality and nature of an established character. I will challenge that statement, and say that there is not one instance from the story that can be drawn upon to show a similarity to the type of misdirection that would be required for this theory.

Also, if we are assuming he has warged out of himself, who's body is he in? I think the quote I posted eliminates the possibility of using one of the corpses.

I don't want to be argumentative--this is all in the pursuit of science! (in this case magic)--but I've yet to be convinced this theory can stand up.

 

[garion77]

What about Cold Hand? He is obviously a undead and he isn't under the Other's control. He couldn't pass through the mountains because he is undead. Which I believe Cold Hand is Benjen Stark who warged into a dead body before his original body was killed. Cold Hand never get cold or need to eat. And the seven kingdom have undead like Cat and Dondorrian who isn't controled by the Others...

 

[Needle]

"Because he has done something like this before," is not a sufficient enough reason to explain completely altering the personality and nature of an established character. I will challenge that statement, and say that there is not one instance from the story that can be drawn upon to show a similarity to the type of misdirection that would be required for this theory.

Also, if we are assuming he has warged out of himself, who's body is he in? I think the quote I posted eliminates the possibility of using one of the corpses.

I don't want to be argumentative--this is all in the pursuit of science! (in this case magic)--but I've yet to be convinced this theory can stand up.

This does not alter Jon's personality at all. He has always just done things once he decides it is the right thing to do! He killed the Halfhand, he deceived Mance and the wildlings (including Ygrette whom he cared for) he took Gilly's baby from her knowing there was a good chance he would burn, he sent his friends away because he dare not be around them with the things he knew he must do, he BROUGHT WILDLINGS SOUTH OF THE WALL even the brotherhood he commands has fought them for thousands of years!! i am not saying any of this makes him a bad guy, I think he may very well be the best of them all. I am merely pointing out that deception is NOT out of character for Jon.

And no your quote does not eliminate the bodies, there is more than one of them.

I am all for the pursuit of magic!

 

[Needle]

What about Cold Hand? He is obviously a undead and he isn't under the Other's control. He couldn't pass through the mountains because he is undead. Which I believe Cold Hand is Benjen Stark who warged into a dead body before his original body was killed. Cold Hand never get cold or need to eat. And the seven kingdom have undead like Cat and Dondorrian who isn't controled by the Others...

I think Coldhands is an exception to most of the others but he is still controlled by something. He tells Sam he was sent.

Cat and Dondorrian are Rhallor's undead, different from the others.

 

[garion77]

I think Coldhands is an exception to most of the others but he is still controlled by something. He tells Sam he was sent.

Cat and Dondorrian are Rhallor's undead, different from the others.

He was sent by the Children of the Forest... And what make him an exception? Why can he do it and not Jon Snow? And could being a warg which I think Benjen Stark/Cold Hand were before dying can counter the Others control? And I don't think the Wights even attacked Cold hand. He was fighting them off of Bran. He seemed about to survive in the hunted woods with ease. That is the only way I can see Jon getting the edge on the Others. Living people just don't stand a chance. And I don't want to see Dany to the rescue with her Dragons... I think Jon will defeat the Others without Dragons...

 

[Needle]

He was sent by the Children of the Forest... And what make him an exception? Why can he do it and not Jon Snow? And could being a warg which I think Benjen Stark/Cold Hand were before dying can counter the Others control? And I don't think the Wights even attacked Cold hand. He was fighting them off of Bran. He seemed about to survive in the hunted woods with ease. That is the only way I can see Jon getting the edge on the Others. Living people just don't stand a chance. And I don't want to see Dany to the rescue with her Dragons... I think Jon will defeat the Others without Dragons...

I really have no idea why he would be different but obviously he is, that was one disappointment from ADWD, no info on Coldhands! Still though for Jon to do something similiar would be pointless for the reasons stated in previous post. It would gain him nothing.

Sorry but the dragons have to be part of it, they were not brought back into the world with much blood and grief just to take back Westeros but don't worry Jon is one of the three heads at the very least, probably AA too!

 

[garion77]

I really have no idea why he would be different but obviously he is, that was one disappointment from ADWD, no info on Coldhands! Still though for Jon to do something similiar would be pointless for the reasons stated in previous post. It would gain him nothing.

Sorry but the dragons have to be part of it, they were not brought back into the world with much blood and grief just to take back Westeros but don't worry Jon is one of the three heads at the very least, probably AA too!

I think it would gain him insight into the Others. And how do Jon suppose to learn how the control a Dragon that don't even know him? Dany have trouble controling the Dragons and she raised them. It wouldn't make any sense for Jon to come along and just automatically learn how to fly on a Dragon back. And I thought one of the criteria of controlling dragons is being immune to heat and fire. And Jon was burnt saving Mormount from the Wight. He isn't immuned to fire like Dany. Dragons are creatures of fire and the rider must also be a creature of fire. Jon is a creature of ice... Which is why he can stand against the coming winter...

I finally figured out the title "ASOIAF"... Jon is the ice against the coming winter and Dany is the fire to forge the kingdoms back together...

I just can't see GRRM doing the obvious... It's not in his nature. He always do something that no one else does. He will kill main good guy characters and let the evil ones survive... GRRM is not going to do the obvious and make Jon AA and one of the heads of the Dragon. He don't love any character that much and it would make his books like all the rest. The guy everyone loves coming out on top...

 

[The Imp]

I think it would gain him insight into the Others. And how do Jon suppose to learn how the control a Dragon that don't even know him? Dany have trouble controling the Dragons and she raised them. It wouldn't make any sense for Jon to come along and just automatically learn how to fly on a Dragon back. And I thought one of the criteria of controlling dragons is being immune to heat and fire. And Jon was burnt saving Mormount from the Wight. He isn't immuned to fire like Dany. Dragons are creatures of fire and the rider must also be a creature of fire. Jon is a creature of ice... Which is why he can stand against the coming winter...

I finally figured out the title "ASOIAF"... Jon is the ice against the coming winter and Dany is the fire to forge the kingdoms back together...

I just can't see GRRM doing the obvious... It's not in his nature. He always do something that no one else does. He will kill main good guy characters and let the evil ones survive... GRRM is not going to do the obvious and make Jon AA and one of the heads of the Dragon. He don't love any character that much and it would make his books like all the rest. The guy everyone loves coming out on top...

Except Jon is a warg and Dany isn't.

As for obvious. There's smack them over the head with a hammer obvious and then there's the "one person figures something out an then it's all over the internet" obvious. Even some of the most "obvious" stuff still took a lot of detective work and reasoning to come up with.

 

[C Of K]

I agree.

GRRM does obvious all the time. 99% of his writing is obvious. It's the few times a book when he strays from the obvious that we see how great a writer he is. But speaking truthfully, GRRM has far too many plot threads hanging loose for all of them not to end in some obvious fashion.

Some might say that it was obvious that Arya would regain her sight. Or that it was obvious that Varys would sneak Tyrion off toward Dany. Or that it was obvious that Jon would betray the wildings after betraying his brothers.

I think it's also true that what is obvious to some is not obvious to others, and none of us really know what will happen until GRRM's writing is published, despite how obvious things may seem.

Spoiler

(Of course The Imp knows, because he is GRRM)

 

[juleska]

Obvious is also subjective. Most readers of this series (though not me) have had a long time to digest these books, congregate on the web and analyze them. After the horse has been beaten to death, resurrected by R'hollor then beaten again....it all seems "obvious". A few months from now we'll all be complaining that Needle's theory about Jon is "too obvious". LOL

 

[The Imp]

Obvious is also subjective. Most readers of this series (though not me) have had a long time to digest these books, congregate on the web and analyze them. After the horse has been beaten to death, resurrected by R'hollor then beaten again....it all seems "obvious". A few months from now we'll all be complaining that Needle's theory about Jon is "too obvious". LOL

The Red Wedding was the most shocking thing i've ever read. When I read ASOS for a second time it was totally obvious that it was coming.

GRRM is like a great magician. He misdirects you, gives false information that has JUST enough truth in it to be believable. He has pretty assistants that dazzle you with their beauty while showing you that the cabinet really is empty, that the sword really is sharp, while at the same time, the real stuff is happening just slightly beyond our ability perceive them.

Despite all of that, certain fundamental pieces of the story cannot be hidden or changed. It's completely obvious and a given that-

-dragons will play a part in the story. GRRM could kill all of them off again, but that would just be remarkably stupid and would ruin the series.

-Arya is going to kill off some of the people on her list. Again, not to have that happen would diminish all of her earlier chapters

-Jon Snow is going to survive, either via the "Needle" theory or in some other way. To have his story end with the last Jon chapter of ADWD would be killing off a character solely for the reason of shock value, and GRRM is too good a writer to do that.

-the series will not end with The Others in power and everyone in Westeros an un-dead and under their control. It won't be a completely happy ending, GRRM has said that, but you can bet the farm that just as winter has been coming, and now is here, spring will come as well.

The wonder and greatness will be in the telling. part of the greatness will aslo be when the totally obvious happens, such as the Freys getting crushed, or Arya being reunited with Nymeria. There will be tiwsts and turns along the way that no one (maybe) will see coming, but much of what is going to happen has already had the foundation set for it. That's the whole point of the beginning and middle of a long series.

 

[garion77]

I just don't see GRRM letting the story end with all the bad guys getting what they deserve and all the good guys coming out on top... In real life, that hardly happens. The bad people do win against the good. The Freys might not get what we think they deserve. Jon might not be AA or one of the heads of the Dragon. Dany might just stay in the east... That's what I like about his writing... You never know what GRRM might do. Some books and movies you can tell from the first 10 minutes how it will end... Not with GRRM...

What if the Boltons keep power? History proves that guys like that are good at holding power. I don't want a guarentee that the Starks will come back... What if GRRM have another series in mind that take place in Westeros that take us 40 years or more in the future? Everyone is looking at his age but I bet GRRM aren't sitting around waiting to die... A Dream of Spring might not resolve all the issues of Westeros...

 

[The Imp]

I just don't see GRRM letting the story end with all the bad guys getting what they deserve and all the good guys coming out on top... In real life, that hardly happens. The bad people do win against the good. The Freys might not get what we think they deserve. Jon might not be AA or one of the heads of the Dragon. Dany might just stay in the east... That's what I like about his writing... You never know what GRRM might do. Some books and movies you can tell from the first 10 minutes how it will end... Not with GRRM...

What if the Boltons keep power? History proves that guys like that are good at holding power. I don't want a guarentee that the Starks will come back... What if GRRM have another series in mind that take place in Westeros that take us 40 years or more in the future? Everyone is looking at his age but I bet GRRM aren't sitting around waiting to die... A Dream of Spring might not resolve all the issues of Westeros...

I'll strongly disagree. GRRM has said the story will be finished in 7 books. He may write more tales of Dunk and Egg, or maybe even some stuff past the end of ASOIAF, but he's finishing this story in this series.

If GRRM was 30 or 40 or even 50 there might be a possibility that he'd have another epic series in mind but at age 62 (soon to be 63) he doesn't. I speak from personal experience, and the experience of everyone that I know that is around that age. There are no guarantees when you reach your 60's. You may live to 80 or 90 or you might be found dead tomorrow moring of a massive heart attack that happened in your sleep. you might be of sound mind in 5 years, or you might be drooling on yourself in a nursing home, asking for lunch 5 minutes after you ate it and not knowing your loved ones when they come to visit you. Mortality becomes much more real when you "ache in the places that you used to play" (paraphrasing Leonard Cohen), and you can't do things you were able to do even 5 years earlier. it also becomes much more real when you start seeing the obituaries of people younger than yourself, or close to your own age.

GRRM isn't an idiot, and his writing certainly shows him to be a realist. I think he'll be delighted if he finishes ASIOAF. I can't beleive he'd be thinking about a followup series.

Sorry if I got anyone depressed reading this.