(ADWD Spoilers), Alert, Jon Snow

[C Of K]

I don't think we have to worry about all the "good guys" coming out on top. How could they? Most of them are dead already. All the "bad guys" will get what they deserve, if we're talking about Freys, Lannisters, and Boltons. Look what has happened to all of them already.

I think ASOIAF is not a story about heroes and villains. Eddard wasn't a hero, and I don't see Jon as a hero, or any of the Starks or Targaryens. There are characters that many of us despise, and characters that most of us like. Bad things seem to happen to all of them.

The Starks have accumulated countless enemies, but one thing no one can refute is the Stark words. The Long Night is upon them all, and all these "bad guys" and "good guys" are going to have to recognize that soon enough.

 

[garion77]

I'll strongly disagree. GRRM has said the story will be finished in 7 books. He may write more tales of Dunk and Egg, or maybe even some stuff past the end of ASOIAF, but he's finishing this story in this series.

If GRRM was 30 or 40 or even 50 there might be a possibility that he'd have another epic series in mind but at age 62 (soon to be 63) he doesn't. I speak from personal experience, and the experience of everyone that I know that is around that age. There are no guarantees when you reach your 60's. You may live to 80 or 90 or you might be found dead tomorrow moring of a massive heart attack that happened in your sleep. you might be of sound mind in 5 years, or you might be drooling on yourself in a nursing home, asking for lunch 5 minutes after you ate it and not knowing your loved ones when they come to visit you. Mortality becomes much more real when you "ache in the places that you used to play" (paraphrasing Leonard Cohen), and you can't do things you were able to do even 5 years earlier. it also becomes much more real when you start seeing the obituaries of people younger than yourself, or close to your own age.

GRRM isn't an idiot, and his writing certainly shows him to be a realist. I think he'll be delighted if he finishes ASIOAF. I can't beleive he'd be thinking about a followup series.

Sorry if I got anyone depressed reading this.

I think GRRM will write to the day he die... And I don't see him wrapping this huge story up in two more books. I just don't see it happening. Everyone talking about finishing up the story but I don't see a reason for him to hurry things up. He said ADWD was half done 5 years ago... I think the same thing will happen with the last two books. He will say it wasn't enough room to wrap things up in two books. That's just my prediction...

And it don't matter if he take four more book to finish because all of us will complain while heading to the book store to buy his latest books... He is sitting on a gold mine and why stop digging while gold still to be found?

 

[Needle]

I think GRRM will write to the day he die... And I don't see him wrapping this huge story up in two more books. I just don't see it happening. Everyone talking about finishing up the story but I don't see a reason for him to hurry things up. He said ADWD was half done 5 years ago... I think the same thing will happen with the last two books. He will say it wasn't enough room to wrap things up in two books. That's just my prediction...

And it don't matter if he take four more book to finish because all of us will complain while heading to the book store to buy his latest books... He is sitting on a gold mine and why stop digging while gold still to be found?

I agree that he will continue to write that is what he is but I do not think it will be ASoIaF. I think it may take 3 more rather than 2 but i don't think he will stretch it just because he can at the expense of the tale and his fans.

 

[garion77]

I agree that he will continue to write that is what he is but I do not think it will be ASoIaF. I think it may take 3 more rather than 2 but i don't think he will stretch it just because he can at the expense of the tale and his fans.

He dragged ADWD out until his HBO series came out... Do you really think it was happen chance the book and the series came out at the same time? He probably was done with ADWD 2 or 3 years ago... GRRM is a smart business man. Sorry to say he will stretch things out at the expense of his tale and fans... He already did it once...

 

[Culhwch]

You're absolutely kidding me, aren't you? That's just plain riduculous. How does not releasing a book that is so eagerly anticipated and could be making plenty of money make sound business sense? As if his publishers wouldn't have just published the thing. And the TV series was the remotest of possibilities 'two or three years ago' - even one year ago there was no guarantee the pilot would be picked up - so that reasoning is shot. Yes, it was a happy coincidence that the book and series somewhat coincided.

If nothing else, the somewhat shoddy editing of the book that obviously resulted from its fast-track to publication once done would show it hasn't been finished for years.

 

[juleska]

Garion, forgive me if I'm overreaching, but I tend to think if you personally had any experience with writing or any other creative enterprise you would not assume that GRRM is deliberately dragging out the series to benefit financially. A true artist (and he is that) is consumed by their work. The art controls the artist, not the other way around. Anyone who has ever written creatively and taken it seriously knows that the story begins to take a shape and a life all its own, and characters will go in directions you did not consciously intend to send them. I have a fine arts background myself, and while I am not one tenth the artist that GRRM is, I can fully appreciate the agony of being unable to complete your work as fast as you (and in his case, your fans) would like it.

A large part of the problem is the way our culture has changed in his lifetime. GRRM first began publishing work in the early 70s and the world has changed a lot since then. It's a microwave world we live in, where people get their news from Twitter and instant gratification isn't fast enough. The idea of waiting as many as 10 years for something is intolerably painful for many, and at the very least difficult for the rest of us. But some things just can't be rushed. Good wine and great scotch both take time, and I don't mind waiting for either of those. It takes more of my time to bake bread at home, but our sandwiches sure taste better when I do.

So I feel for Mr. Martin, because I know his pain as an artist. But I'm fine with him taking his time and if I have to wait 10 years for the next book then I will....because I consider it worth the wait. I don't expect everyone would feel that way, and that's fine, but I don't think it's fair to assign malicious or greedy motivations just because our culture lacks the patience to wait for things anymore.

 

[Ursa major]

A true artist (and he is that) is consumed by their work. The art controls the artist, not the other way around. Anyone who has ever written creatively and taken it seriously knows that the story begins to take a shape and a life all its own, and characters will go in directions you did not consciously intend to send them.

This is very true. We've been allowed to get under the skin of so many of the characters in ASoIaF, so if GRRM had them do things that they simply wouldn't, we'd know it right away. (I daresay that if a character acted out of character, someone would suggest that they'd been possessed or replaced.)

But some things just can't be rushed. Good wine and great scotch both take time, and I don't mind waiting for either of those. It takes more of my time to bake bread at home, but our sandwiches sure taste better when I do.

So I feel for Mr. Martin, because I know his pain as an artist. But I'm fine with him taking his time and if I have to wait 10 years for the next book then I will....because I consider it worth the wait.

If GRRM were to be suddenly overcome with the obsessive need to get the series finished to the extent that he would rush out one or two books to achieve this, leaving great plot holes and treating the characters as puppets, he and we would all be sorry. Very sorry. And rightly so.

I don't expect everyone would feel that way, and that's fine, but I don't think it's fair to assign malicious or greedy motivations just because our culture lacks the patience to wait for things anymore.

True.

 

[Needle]

Just so juleska!!

You have a way with words my friend! By the way, be safe over there, you are all in my prayers.

 

[The Imp]

Garion, forgive me if I'm overreaching, but I tend to think if you personally had any experience with writing or any other creative enterprise you would not assume that GRRM is deliberately dragging out the series to benefit financially. A true artist (and he is that) is consumed by their work. The art controls the artist, not the other way around. Anyone who has ever written creatively and taken it seriously knows that the story begins to take a shape and a life all its own, and characters will go in directions you did not consciously intend to send them. I have a fine arts background myself, and while I am not one tenth the artist that GRRM is, I can fully appreciate the agony of being unable to complete your work as fast as you (and in his case, your fans) would like it.

A large part of the problem is the way our culture has changed in his lifetime. GRRM first began publishing work in the early 70s and the world has changed a lot since then. It's a microwave world we live in, where people get their news from Twitter and instant gratification isn't fast enough. The idea of waiting as many as 10 years for something is intolerably painful for many, and at the very least difficult for the rest of us. But some things just can't be rushed. Good wine and great scotch both take time, and I don't mind waiting for either of those. It takes more of my time to bake bread at home, but our sandwiches sure taste better when I do.

So I feel for Mr. Martin, because I know his pain as an artist. But I'm fine with him taking his time and if I have to wait 10 years for the next book then I will....because I consider it worth the wait. I don't expect everyone would feel that way, and that's fine, but I don't think it's fair to assign malicious or greedy motivations just because our culture lacks the patience to wait for things anymore.

Perfectly stated. I'll also add that given the continuing success of aSoIaF (the books) coupled with the resounding success of the HBO project, GRRm very likely will never have to worry about money for the rest of his life. I don't think he will need to "milk" the series in order to make more money.

 

[garion77]

You're absolutely kidding me, aren't you? That's just plain riduculous. How does not releasing a book that is so eagerly anticipated and could be making plenty of money make sound business sense? As if his publishers wouldn't have just published the thing. And the TV series was the remotest of possibilities 'two or three years ago' - even one year ago there was no guarantee the pilot would be picked up - so that reasoning is shot. Yes, it was a happy coincidence that the book and series somewhat coincided.

If nothing else, the somewhat shoddy editing of the book that obviously resulted from its fast-track to publication once done would show it hasn't been finished for years.

GRRM have loyal readers like you and I... But the average person don't know a thing about GRRM... When I went to Target to buy ADWD, the sale guy said they didn't have it... I knew for a fact they had it because my friend had picked a copy up just a few hours earlier. The sale clerk had no idea who GRRM was... But when I said "Game of Thrones" he knew exactly what I was talking about. He knew HBO "A Game of Thrones" but didn't know GRRM.

All of my co-workers at work is talking about "A Game of Thrones" on HBO. They don't even know it's a book... My fiance love the series but she hate fantasy books. My friends, family, co-workers, and just people you meet love the series. But very few I can get to read the books until now.... i have loaned my books out a few times since the series...

I love the Harry Potter movies... I never read one Harry Potter book before the movies. I didn't even know Harry Potter existed before the movies. But since watching the movies, had have glanced at a few Harry Potter books.

GRRM is going after the general public... Not guys like you and I who are drooling over the next book. The hardcore fans who he have already... It's the general public he need. GRRM has sold 18 million books total... JK Rowling have sold over 100 million books... Her movies and books come out not to far apart... Movies help sell books... I might not be an author but I am a damn good businessmen... I own my own business and know how to market and sell. And GRRM might love writing but he loves money also... He is a very smart and wealthy man...

 

[Culhwch]

But you are making the assumption that Martin had total control over the series being made and picked up, which is not the case at all. As far as I know Martin never actively shopped the novels around - he was approached by HBO to do the adaptation. Even then, for the longest time there was no guarantee it would come to fruition - and Martin had no control over that. Those types of decisions are made by network executives and finance people. Even once the pilot was greenlighted and made, there was no guarantee it was going to be picked up - and although Martin provided the source material, there was no guarantee what the creative team (a team of hundreds, if not more) put together would entice HBO to greenlight the first season. And even then, it's only chance that the right decision-makers saw that pilot and gave it the go ahead - a year earlier, a year later, a different executive with different likes, dislikes and values may have said no. Martin has talked about this very thing in regards to his experiences with the television industry, I believe with his failed project Doorways.

So you have him finishing the book two or three years ago, and not publishing it - when sales would have been massive, regardless - and instead waiting on a television show that was barely a rumour at the time, and that he had no control over, and that was never guaranteed to even see the light of day, instead of releasing the novel, collecting sales on five books rather than four for two or three years while he wrote the sixth book, which he could have released to coincide with the TV series, if it eventuated, at which point he'd have six books to sell to a slavering televsion audience rather than the five he currently has.

It may just be me, but I don't see the benefits in this theoretical business model.

And unless you know the man, I think it's pretty unfair to label him as money-hungry. I don't know him either, but nothing I've read or seen or heard leads me to believe such a thing. The very fact that he takes so long to release these books, rather than pumping three or four out a year using a James Petterson-esque cottage industry, would lead me to believe the opposite, actually.

 

[Ursa major]

And to add to what Cul has said: there's more chance of GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire series being completed than there is a of HBO's Game of Thrones series doing the same.

It costs next to nothing (apart from GRRM's time and effort) for the books to keep coming. Even if book seven were to be a lot worse than any of its predecessors, it would be published. Perhaps not in as big numbers as before, but it would be out there. By contrast, each season of a TV series, even one not as complex and packed with characters as GoT, costs a small fortune to produce. A season with poor viewing figures would the last one made. GRRM knows this: he was a TV producer.

Why on Earth would GRRM tie his future - and that of ASoIaF, his baby - to something depending on the goodwill of the fickle people who commission TV shows?

 

[The Imp]

And to add to what Cul has said: there's more chance of GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire series being completed than there is a of HBO's Game of Thrones series doing the same.

It costs next to nothing (apart from GRRM's time and effort) for the books to keep coming. Even if book seven were to be a lot worse than any of its predecessors, it would be published. Perhaps not in as big numbers as before, but it would be out there. By contrast, each season of a TV series, even one not as complex and packed with characters as GoT, costs a small fortune to produce. A season with poor viewing figures would the last one made. GRRM knows this: he was a TV producer.

Why on Earth would GRRM tie his future - and that of ASoIaF, his baby - to something depending on the goodwill of the fickle people who commission TV shows?

Not to mention that he pissed people off and definitely lost readers by taking so long to get ADWD done. Also, there would have been more HBO viewers to boost ratings if there were more book fans. It just makes no sense to propose a conspiracy theory that has GRRM stalling to boost sales.

 

[garion77]

Not to mention that he pissed people off and definitely lost readers by taking so long to get ADWD done. Also, there would have been more HBO viewers to boost ratings if there were more book fans. It just makes no sense to propose a conspiracy theory that has GRRM stalling to boost sales.

We might disagree on this matter but I still love you guys... I have read some good posts on here about aspects of the books I didn't notice.

I read somewhere that ASOIAF Video game is coming out. Anyone have any information on that?

 

[C Of K]

You're a good guy, garrion77. I think everyone here agrees on that, even if they disagree with you a lot of the time.

That said, I have to disagree with you, too. GRRM had a very hard time writing A Dance With Dragons, just like he had a hard time writing A Feast For Crows. It took him 5 years to finish A Feast For Crows because 500 pages into writing it, he realized it wasn't what he wanted. He scrapped nearly the entire thing, and started over.

After announcing that A Dance with Dragons was nearly half done, when A Feast for Crows came out, he realized that much of what he had for A Dance With Dragons wasn't exactly how he wanted it either.

Again, it took him a long time to write. But also, he was traveling a lot, doing interviews, watching football games, getting married, getting sick, editing his Wild Cards series, visiting the set s for A Game of Thrones, and having an overall good life. But all that was pushing the publishing date for A Dance With Dragons further backwards. Life gets in the way while you're busy making other plans...

Authors who are known for writing stories as large as his, often have to write 7 days a week, 14 hours a day.

He's a slow writer, and he'll be the first to admit that, but if things aren't how he wants them, he won't hesitate (MUCH) to start over. He and I share that quality, I believe.

 

[The Imp]

We might disagree on this matter but I still love you guys... I have read some good posts on here about aspects of the books I didn't notice.

I read somewhere that ASOIAF Video game is coming out. Anyone have any information on that?

DIsagreement is not synonymous with dislike

The video game that is coming out soonish is a RTS. There are apparently plans to create a MMORPg as well, but that one isn't anywhere close to being done. More info here

http://grrm.livejournal.com/237278.html

 

[viZion]

I'm not really a GRRM fan (I'm a fan of his books but I have negative opinions about him personally) but even I don't think he's trying to milk the series. I've said before that I think he's tired of writing it and wishes it could just be over so he could concentrate completely on visiting conventions and releasing Wildcards compilations. But he knows he has to finish it and his perfectionism gets in the way of making that happen in a timely manner. He's simply explored a few too many story lines but I don't think he meant for that to happen. Like Juleska explained above, sometimes the writer can lose control. His big issue now is trying to rein it back in.

GRRM is most often compared to Robert Jordan in regards to milking a series. The thing is Robert Jordan started writing WOT in a time when the internet was essentially non-existent and died in a time where it was still much less prevalent than today. Because the internet has made it so easy to share opinions, GRRM takes a ton of abuse that Jordan never had to deal with. I can't imagine anyone could willingly endure that kind of abuse for the sake of extending a series of books. He really does want to finish off this series as soon as possible.

 

[garion77]

You guys could be right... The more I look at it, the more I think if I was in GRRM shoes and in my 60s or 70s, I wouldn't want to spend all my days writing books. He has made a lot of money and I am sure he would like to enjoy spending it. I like what the guy said above about he just want to finish the series up and enjoy his life with is companion, Paris I think that's her name.

GRRM like traveling and seeing the world. It's hard doing that writing 1200 page books... I wrote a screenplay and it took me forever to finish it. But I think I did a good job... But I rewrote it a few times myself. So I feel where you guys are coming from...

 

[The Imp]

You guys could be right... The more I look at it, the more I think if I was in GRRM shoes and in my 60s or 70s, I wouldn't want to spend all my days writing books. He has made a lot of money and I am sure he would like to enjoy spending it. I like what the guy said above about he just want to finish the series up and enjoy his life with is companion, Paris I think that's her name.

GRRM like traveling and seeing the world. It's hard doing that writing 1200 page books... I wrote a screenplay and it took me forever to finish it. But I think I did a good job... But I rewrote it a few times myself. So I feel where you guys are coming from...

Parris and George got married earlier this year, after living togther ofr something like 30 years (correct me someone if I'm wrong)

 

[juleska]

GRRM have loyal readers like you and I... But the average person don't know a thing about GRRM... When I went to Target to buy ADWD, the sale guy said they didn't have it... I knew for a fact they had it because my friend had picked a copy up just a few hours earlier. The sale clerk had no idea who GRRM was... But when I said "Game of Thrones" he knew exactly what I was talking about. He knew HBO "A Game of Thrones" but didn't know GRRM.

All of my co-workers at work is talking about "A Game of Thrones" on HBO. They don't even know it's a book... My fiance love the series but she hate fantasy books. My friends, family, co-workers, and just people you meet love the series. But very few I can get to read the books until now.... i have loaned my books out a few times since the series...

I love the Harry Potter movies... I never read one Harry Potter book before the movies. I didn't even know Harry Potter existed before the movies. But since watching the movies, had have glanced at a few Harry Potter books.

GRRM is going after the general public... Not guys like you and I who are drooling over the next book. The hardcore fans who he have already... It's the general public he need. GRRM has sold 18 million books total... JK Rowling have sold over 100 million books... Her movies and books come out not to far apart... Movies help sell books... I might not be an author but I am a damn good businessmen... I own my own business and know how to market and sell. And GRRM might love writing but he loves money also... He is a very smart and wealthy man...

I can understand where you're coming from, thinking about this as a businessman. But unless I'm misunderstanding you, your comparison to the Harry Potter books doesn't really hold with what you're suggesting. You say he's stalling to sell more books, yet Rowling (whom we all agree was not a "staller") has sold 5.5 x as many books as GRRM has. If he's stalling to increase his sales, I don't think it's working.