(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

[viZion]

I did some cursory research and, indeed, not ALL Targaryens have silver hair. The silver hair and purple eyes are actually a Valyrian trait and not something that's exclusive to Targaryens. There have been quite a few Targaryens that do not have silver hair. These include Baelor Breakspear (eldest son of Daeron II and Hand of the King) and Rhaenys Targaryen.

Rhaenys is actually really interesting since she had brown hair like her mother and she is the daughter of Rhaegar. If R + L = J is true then Jon has dark hair....just like his mother.

It's almost like GRRM is beating over the head with clues.

 

[Tywin]

I didn't say that all the Stark kids had auburn hair... I said Robb and Sansa... And I think a product of Baratheon and Targaryen would produce silver hair... And it is said that Baratheon and Targaryen is distant cousins... That helped legitimize Roberts claim to the throne...

I believe all Targaryens have silver hair... That's why Connington dyed Aeagon's hair black.

If my memory serves from the first book, I think the Baratheons having black hair was a fairly important plot point.

In any case, Robert Baratheon had Targ blood, and he had dark hair.

 

[viZion]

Doing a bit more research and there are plenty of Targaryens with non-silver hair. Here's the list so far:

Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen
Rhaenys Targaryen
Daeron "the Drunken" Targaryen
Aegor Rivers

Not included are those with golden hair which is also common to Targaryens.

There are probably more but that's enough to prove the point and I'm tired of scanning wiki pages .

 

[The Imp]

Doing a bit more research and there are plenty of Targaryens with non-silver hair. Here's the list so far:

Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen
Rhaenys Targaryen
Daeron "the Drunken" Targaryen
Aegor Rivers

Not included are those with golden hair which is also common to Targaryens.

There are probably more but that's enough to prove the point and I'm tired of scanning wiki pages .

Well done

 

[garion77]

Doing a bit more research and there are plenty of Targaryens with non-silver hair. Here's the list so far:

Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen
Rhaenys Targaryen
Daeron "the Drunken" Targaryen
Aegor Rivers

Not included are those with golden hair which is also common to Targaryens.

There are probably more but that's enough to prove the point and I'm tired of scanning wiki pages .

I stand corrected... That was my only hangup about Jon being Targaryen... It had to be a reason why Ned secretly went after Lyana with only 6 trusted friends...

So is the series name after Jon? Since he is Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen)...

 

[The Imp]

I stand corrected... That was my only hangup about Jon being Targaryen... It had to be a reason why Ned secretly went after Lyana with only 6 trusted friends...

So is the series name after Jon? Since he is Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen)...

I've come to think that the series is about the unification of Ice and Fire, maybe through Jon.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Hmmm.... Conflict between Ice and Fire still seems more probable resolution to me, although outcome of that clash might be unorthodox, in GRRM's manner.

 

[Tywin]

Hmmm.... Conflict between Ice and Fire still seems more probable resolution to me, although outcome of that clash might be unorthodox, in GRRM's manner.

I think "A Song" implies some sort of harmony between ice and fire.

 

[The Imp]

I think "A Song" implies some sort of harmony between ice and fire.

I'm more in agreement with this than conflict, although i think the harmony won't come until AFTER a conflict between the two. Too much foundation work and foreshadowing has happened to have anything else happen IMO> We're 5 books into the series. We have a lot of information, we just have to use it properly.

 

[NenadBulaja]

So the whole point of Jon being AA is in the fact that he will unite Fire and Ice in himself. Or in some sort of unison with Dany maybe.

And that does not sound too convenient to you?

Great songs are made about grief and sorrow in the same amount as for joy and happiness, so to me "Song" does not imply anything.

What about of harmony of the silent battlefield, in which representatives from both sides lie dead in dark harmony. Why is only "Happy ending" acceptable option?

Proper use of information is personal. I can see the same information as you, but interpret them completely different, and to me much more in accordance with ASoIaF is some sort of "middle ground" solution, or as GRRM calls it "bittersweet" ending. In which, methinks, there will be no true heroes, just aftermath of horrible war, and people that survived it (maybe or maybe not Jon) left to try rebuilding the land ( in harmony if possible ), and carrying message of hope for future generations.

 

[The Imp]

So the whole point of Jon being AA is in the fact that he will unite Fire and Ice in himself. Or in some sort of unison with Dany maybe.

And that does not sound too convenient to you?

Great songs are made about grief and sorrow in the same amount as for joy and happiness, so to me "Song" does not imply anything.

What about of harmony of the silent battlefield, in which representatives from both sides lie dead in dark harmony. Why is only "Happy ending" acceptable option?

Proper use of information is personal. I can see the same information as you, but interpret them completely different, and to me much more in accordance with ASoIaF is some sort of "middle ground" solution, or as GRRM calls it "bittersweet" ending. In which, methinks, there will be no true heroes, just aftermath of horrible war, and people that survived it (maybe or maybe not Jon) left to try rebuilding the land ( in harmony if possible ), and carrying message of hope for future generations.

I'm not saying you're wrong, i'm simply stating my opinion. There is no right or wrong in this kind of discussion, and the series might be ovwer and people may still be interperting what happened.

As for being too convenient-

I don't read reviews before seeing a movie or reading a book. I form my opinions based on what I perceive. When I fiorst heard about the series, I was told the name of the series and the name of the first book. I was convinced after reading aGot that aSoIaF refers to the Starks (Ice) and the Targaryens ((fire). I don't think that's convenient" as GRRM named the series and wrote the story.

Maybe I don't undertsand what you mean by convenient

I essentially agree with much of your post btw, but I think the end result will be unification, not fragmentation.

 

[garion77]

I'm not saying you're wrong, i'm simply stating my opinion. There is no right or wrong in this kind of discussion, and the series might be ovwer and people may still be interperting what happened.

As for being too convenient-

I don't read reviews before seeing a movie or reading a book. I form my opinions based on what I perceive. When I fiorst heard about the series, I was told the name of the series and the name of the first book. I was convinced after reading aGot that aSoIaF refers to the Starks (Ice) and the Targaryens ((fire). I don't think that's convenient" as GRRM named the series and wrote the story.

Maybe I don't undertsand what you mean by convenient

I essentially agree with much of your post btw, but I think the end result will be unification, not fragmentation.

I always thought it meant Jon (ICE) and Dany (FIRE)... The series can't be about Stark and Targaryen because the main families are Starks and Lannisters... GRRM did the series after the "war of the roses"... The Storks and Lancasters...

Jon is ice and Dany is fire... That's why I believe he has them in different parts of the world...

And something else I realized... If Jon died at the end of ADWD why didn't Dany see his death in her vision? She saw Robb's death and the others but not Jon...

 

[The Imp]

I always thought it meant Jon (ICE) and Dany (FIRE)... The series can't be about Stark and Targaryen because the main families are Starks and Lannisters... GRRM did the series after the "war of the roses"... The Storks and Lancasters...

Jon is ice and Dany is fire... That's why I believe he has them in different parts of the world...

And something else I realized... If Jon died at the end of ADWD why didn't Dany see his death in her vision? She saw Robb's death and the others but not Jon...

I think that Jon is what binds them. I know about The Wars of the Roses, and I'll still stand by what I said

 

[NenadBulaja]

I'm not saying you're wrong, i'm simply stating my opinion. There is no right or wrong in this kind of discussion, and the series might be ovwer and people may still be interperting what happened.

As for being too convenient-

I don't read reviews before seeing a movie or reading a book. I form my opinions based on what I perceive. When I fiorst heard about the series, I was told the name of the series and the name of the first book. I was convinced after reading aGot that aSoIaF refers to the Starks (Ice) and the Targaryens ((fire). I don't think that's convenient" as GRRM named the series and wrote the story.

Maybe I don't undertsand what you mean by convenient

I essentially agree with much of your post btw, but I think the end result will be unification, not fragmentation.

Wrong in what? We are only stating opinions, and you didn't answer me - do you think Jon will unite I and F in himself, in unison with Dany, some other way...

Rest of my post depends on this, because I do think that simply uniting I and F through what most people consider their metaphors are in the series (Starks and Targs) is too convenient, considering smoke and mirrors theory about GRRM's writing. Leading people to believe one thing through entire series, and then serving them something completely different would be in the manner of great masters of illusion, and GRRM's own style. But, again, this depends on your theory how will harmony be reached.

Pardon my English, I'm usually eloquent (if I may say that for myself), but this is first time I ever wrote so extensively in your language, and not being clear is bound to happen, and I'm sorry for that, but, as everyone points, this is great forum, love commenting in it, and value everyone's opinion, even when I don't agree. Will try to be clearer in the future, just have little patience if I I'm not always able to express myself correctly.

 

[Tywin]

Originally Posted by The Imp
I'm more in agreement with this than conflict, although i think the harmony won't come until AFTER a conflict between the two. Too much foundation work and foreshadowing has happened to have anything else happen IMO> We're 5 books into the series. We have a lot of information, we just have to use it properly.

This is the classic plot structure of a romance (comedy, not tragedy).

 

[Mesanna]

I'm inclined to think that Ice and Fire refers to multiple themes running through the book. The Starks and the Targs are one, R'hllor and the Great Other could be another, and also Dragons v Others/Wights. If Jon ends up being the hero of the series, then it certainly applies to him (as the child of Ice and Fire), or Dany and Jon together. There are so many choices ... !

 

[The Imp]

I'm inclined to think that Ice and Fire refers to multiple themes running through the book. The Starks and the Targs are one, R'hllor and the Great Other could be another, and also Dragons v Others/Wights. If Jon ends up being the hero of the series, then it certainly applies to him (as the child of Ice and Fire), or Dany and Jon together. There are so many choices ... !

I think this is spot on, but I think that a very common theme in the series is the conflict between good and evil, hot and cold, male and female, young and old, light and shadow, etc. We know everyone is not going to live happily ever after, and my guess is that in keeping with the theme GRRM will have a Moses-like ending, although it will clearly be a different story.

 

[Tywin]

Originally Posted by The Imp
I think this is spot on, but I think that a very common theme in the series is the conflict between good and evil, hot and cold, male and female, young and old, light and shadow, etc.

This starts to sound a lot like Robert Jordan's "Yin and Yang" allusions.

On a side note, is there any way to correct the grammar in this thread's title?

 

[The Imp]

This starts to sound a lot like Robert Jordan's "Yin and Yang" allusions.

On a side note, is there any way to correct the grammar in this thread's title?

Jordan didn't have a lock on the idea of Yin/Yang. IMO the use of this concept is what makes this a great series, at least as far as character development goes.

A mod could probably edit the title, but I think that it's a case of English as a second language, and although i tend to expect good grammer from native English speakers, I'm fine with a non-native having glaring mistakes. I do notice it every time i lok at the thread title though, so I know what you mean.

 

[Needle]

I'm inclined to think that Ice and Fire refers to multiple themes running through the book. The Starks and the Targs are one, R'hllor and the Great Other could be another, and also Dragons v Others/Wights. If Jon ends up being the hero of the series, then it certainly applies to him (as the child of Ice and Fire), or Dany and Jon together. There are so many choices ... !

I agree Mesanna. Also the story as a whole is a song of sorts, the dance of Ice and Fire.