(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

[garion77]

Wow... an avalanche. Let me try my best to defend my reasoning.

First of all, I didn't say that Jon isn't AA, just that in my opinion Dany is more likely candidate.

Every hero needs to make sacrifice great enough to prove his worth. In AA case he decided to kill his beloved wife in order to save the world. Yigrrite doesn't compare, if Jon is AA, the greater sacrifice is coming his way, who could it be I cannot begin to guess.

At the moment NW can be compared to the Lightbringer only in the sense that it is failing his AA (Jon) in every aspect as Lightbringer did, before great hero decided to temper it in the blood of innocent woman. Oath they take sounds very poetic, but let's check some facts: At the beginning of the books, sworn brother runs FROM the Others instead fighting them and protecting the realm, Mance Ryder betrays his oaths and becomes King-beyond-the-wall, Sworn brothers rebel and kill old Bear while running away from wraiths, even Jon betrays the oath taking a spear-wife. Sworn brothers, in the very least, try to kill Jon - their Lord Commander. Where is this in the oaths? If NW is to become the Lightbringer, something must be DRASTICALLY changed in the way they fulfill their oaths.

Everything that I read so far in ASoIaF goes to one point - DON'T BE FOOLED BY GREAT WORDS. Words are wind. GRRM is maester of words, and he is using them to conjure better glamours than Mel.

But remember... The NW over the century forgot their true purpose... They thought they were created to keep out the Wildlings... That's not true... They were created to keep out the Others. But over time, Nobel houses stop sending their sons to the wall and started sending murderers and rapers... Jon is bringing an end to that by allowing the Wildlings and women to serve on the wall... Women never served on the wall until Jon... Never...

An AA killing his wife to make a sword? Don't make sense... It's too fantasy and that's not GRRM style... If that story was true, Nissa Nissa is the one who truly made the biggest sacrifice... Not AA...

I believe until AA was truly able to let go of his wife emotionally, he wasn't able to do what was needed... His love for her and her love for him was keeping him from forming what needed to be formed... The NW thus the Oath... "I will take no wife"... By taking that vow, AA figurely not literally thrusted his sword through his wife's heart... In other words, he broke her heart...

Jon have put things in motion to make the NW completely independent like they were of old... He started with the loan from the Iron Bank and ending with the Wildliings which have women to replenish their ranks for generations...

 

[NenadBulaja]

But remember... The NW over the century forgot their true purpose... They thought they were created to keep out the Wildlings... That's not true... They were created to keep out the Others. But over time, Nobel houses stop sending their sons to the wall and started sending murderers and rapers... Jon is bringing an end to that by allowing the Wildlings and women to serve on the wall... Women never served on the wall until Jon... Never...

An AA killing his wife to make a sword? Don't make sense... It's too fantasy and that's not GRRM style... If that story was true, Nissa Nissa is the one who truly made the biggest sacrifice... Not AA...

I believe until AA was truly able to let go of his wife emotionally, he wasn't able to do what was needed... His love for her and her love for him was keeping him from forming what needed to be formed... The NW thus the Oath... "I will take no wife"... By taking that vow, AA figurely not literally thrusted his sword through his wife's heart... In other words, he broke her heart...

Jon have put things in motion to make the NW completely independent like they were of old... He started with the loan from the Iron Bank and ending with the Wildliings which have women to replenish their ranks for generations...

And that is why NW must be broken, and then reforged. Not on unsustainable oaths that sounds grand but on practical solutions that will keep their purpose for long time.

We agree that AA from legend killing his wife is metaphor. But I consider it as metaphor for that sacrifice in order to achieve grand things is necessary.

Again if Jon is the new AA, I still don't see him making sacrifice that can compare to the one from the legend. And if NW is Lightbringer, it is yet to be tempered.

Here is alternative idea of my own:

Presuming that Jon is AA, and NW is Lightbringer - Jon manages to recover from attack by his sworn brothers (not going into how), but during the fight that ensued from attempt on his life, NW is almost completely wiped out, and Jon decides that NW as it was no longer serves it purpose (breaking of the Lightbringer No.1), and starts rebuilding it on different postulates. In the mean time the Others attack, and in ensuing battle manage to break the Wall and defeat NW (breaking of the Lightbringer No.2), Jon and remains of NW retreat south, and meet with forces of Westeros + Dany with Dotraki, Dragons and Unsullied. During the retreat many men join the watch, swelling it's ranks. When they meet Jon and Dany fell in love. And Jon becomes one of the dragon heads deciding to join Dany (Breaking of the Lightbringer No.3). But as the final battle approaches, Jon realizes that NW is main instrument in defeating The Others, rejects Dany's offer to renounce of the NW and become her husband and ruler of Westeros reforged, choosing instead to lead NW in the final battle (Tempering of the Lightbringer and part of bittersweet ending) as their Lord Commander, and if The Others are defeated to return to rebuild the Wall, staying there as First Lord Commander of the new NW, renouncing of the future as Dany's husband and ruler of the Realm.

 

[garion77]

And that is why NW must be broken, and then reforged. Not on unsustainable oaths that sounds grand but on practical solutions that will keep their purpose for long time.

We agree that AA from legend killing his wife is metaphor. But I consider it as metaphor for that sacrifice in order to achieve grand things is necessary.

Again if Jon is the new AA, I still don't see him making sacrifice that can compare to the one from the legend. And if NW is Lightbringer, it is yet to be tempered.

Here is alternative idea of my own:

Presuming that Jon is AA, and NW is Lightbringer - Jon manages to recover from attack by his sworn brothers (not going into how), but during the fight that ensued from attempt on his life, NW is almost completely wiped out, and Jon decides that NW as it was no longer serves it purpose (breaking of the Lightbringer No.1), and starts rebuilding it on different postulates. In the mean time the Others attack, and in ensuing battle manage to break the Wall and defeat NW (breaking of the Lightbringer No.2), Jon and remains of NW retreat south, and meet with forces of Westeros + Dany with Dotraki, Dragons and Unsullied. During the retreat many men join the watch, swelling it's ranks. When they meet Jon and Dany fell in love. And Jon becomes one of the dragon heads deciding to join Dany (Breaking of the Lightbringer No.3). But as the final battle approaches, Jon realizes that NW is main instrument in defeating The Others, rejects Dany's offer to renounce of the NW and become her husband and ruler of Westeros reforged, choosing instead to lead NW in the final battle (Tempering of the Lightbringer and part of bittersweet ending) as their Lord Commander, and if The Others are defeated to return to rebuild the Wall, staying there as First Lord Commander of the new NW, renouncing of the future as Dany's husband and ruler of the Realm.

I agree with most of what you said... The only problem I see is doing all of this with just two books left... And if the next book move at the same speed as ADWD, it would be impossible for all those events to take place... But I don't think the wall will fall...

And I think you are wrong about the NW oath... It's power and magic in those words if spoken from the heart and by honorable men... Those times when Jon wanted to leave when Ned and Robb died his friends had to make him speak his oath... The oath tell us more about the NW then all 5 books put together...

But I really like how you described how Lightbringer/NW will be reforged stronger and with purpose... And also Jon turning down Dany offer to be her husband to honor his vows to the NW... That would be a bittersweet ending...

 

[NenadBulaja]

I agree with most of what you said... The only problem I see is doing all of this with just two books left... And if the next book move at the same speed as ADWD, it would be impossible for all those events to take place... But I don't think the wall will fall...

Good observation. My belief is that pace of books will speed up, there is also possibility of "time skip". In which I believe, and which could help GRRM build characters to appropriate level of experience - power - knowledge before he throws them in battle with Others.

Maybe not, but I hope it will. Many secrets buried in the Wall, want to see them. Also think that the plot will lead all characters in desperate situation, forcing them to make hard decisions and give all they got to win. Don't see that happening with the Wall standing.

And I think you are wrong about the NW oath... It's power and magic in those words if spoken from the heart and by honorable men... Those times when Jon wanted to leave when Ned and Robb died his friends had to make him speak his oath... The oath tell us more about the NW then all 5 books put together...

Yeah, well "honorable" men are rarity in NW in ASoIaF, just the little group you mentioned and some more, but most of them are still what they were before they took the black - thieves, rapists, murderers... The Oath tells us about men that created NW. After all the time has passed NW is just a shadow of what it was. And Oath could not change that.

But I really like how you described how Lightbringer/NW will be reforged stronger and with purpose... And also Jon turning down Dany offer to be her husband to honor his vows to the NW... That would be a bittersweet ending...

Thank you, I just love being praised

 

[Tywin]

Yeah, well "honorable" men are rarity in NW in ASoIaF, just the little group you mentioned and some more, but most of them are still what they were before they took the black - thieves, rapists, murderers... The Oath tells us about men that created NW. After all the time has passed NW is just a shadow of what it was. And Oath could not change that.

I'm going to disagree with this. Even the nastiest men of the NW seem to be affected by that oath and their duty, sometimes they go against it, but it is a factor in their decisions and I would guess that in many of their previous lines of work they never had any kind of consideration like that.

The beauty of the NW is just that - that the 'dirty scum' of mankind gets redemption through duty. Good men are made, they are not born that way. This is an often recurring theme (arguably the main theme) of GRRM's writing - that birth and breeding do not make a person good. Practice, hard work, overcoming challenges, and good teachers are what make a person good. Eddard Stark was the embodiment of this message, and the path of the series is following how the groundwork that he set for his children will eventually bring them through the winter (both metaphorical and actual) after his death. The Starks have done this for thousands of years. Winter is Coming.

 

[NenadBulaja]

I'm going to disagree with this. Even the nastiest men of the NW seem to be affected by that oath and their duty, sometimes they go against it, but it is a factor in their decisions and I would guess that in many of their previous lines of work they never had any kind of consideration like that.

The beauty of the NW is just that - that the 'dirty scum' of mankind gets redemption through duty. Good men are made, they are not born that way. This is an often recurring theme (arguably the main theme) of GRRM's writing - that birth and breeding do not make a person good. Practice, hard work, overcoming challenges, and good teachers are what make a person good. Eddard Stark was the embodiment of this message, and the path of the series is following how the groundwork that he set for his children will eventually bring them through the winter (both metaphorical and actual) after his death. The Starks have done this for thousands of years. Winter is Coming.

"Good men" is very arguable term. I would say that combination of corporal punishment if they flee, gratefulness for been given second chance, increased sense of purpose, and yes, even the famous Oath, allow men that join the Watch to fulfill their duties better than someone would expect considering their background.

Not all who join the watch are "scum of the earth"though, like Jon, his uncle. old Bear... And many of those that are forcibly conscripted, embrace the chance to make something meaningful of their life. But many still see it only as another version of punishment, and use any opportunity they have to avoid it, if they can without being punished.

Beautiful sentence about Starks, and I agree that they will be instrumental in defeat of winter. But sacrifices are imminent (Ned, Robb, maybe someone else), because to do the right thing can cost allot.

 

[garion77]

I'm going to disagree with this. Even the nastiest men of the NW seem to be affected by that oath and their duty, sometimes they go against it, but it is a factor in their decisions and I would guess that in many of their previous lines of work they never had any kind of consideration like that.

The beauty of the NW is just that - that the 'dirty scum' of mankind gets redemption through duty. Good men are made, they are not born that way. This is an often recurring theme (arguably the main theme) of GRRM's writing - that birth and breeding do not make a person good. Practice, hard work, overcoming challenges, and good teachers are what make a person good. Eddard Stark was the embodiment of this message, and the path of the series is following how the groundwork that he set for his children will eventually bring them through the winter (both metaphorical and actual) after his death. The Starks have done this for thousands of years. Winter is Coming.

Very well said, Tywin... You are right... That's what I like about GRRM characters... They aren't the pearly teeth princes that everyone love and can fight dragons without messing up his perfect hair...

That what make the whole NW idea so great... The world actually can be save by ordinary men with not so good background. That's why i would hate seeing Dany come save the day... A highborn princess saving the poor peasants from the bad guys... The story would end up like every other fantasy book... It would be nice to have ordinary people save the day just one time instead of some hidden prince or princess or some destined king...

What if GRRM actually did something different and let a rag tag gang of thieves, murders, and rapist who are lead by a ******* save the day...

What if out of a million fantasy books written over the years, a common man do something great... That trully would be unique...

 

[Tywin]

That what make the whole NW idea so great... The world actually can be save by ordinary men with not so good background.

For the record, I would put most of the Soldiers that I have served with in the NW category, and not the "pearly-toothed prince" category.

 

[garion77]

For the record, I would put most of the Soldiers that I have served with in the NW category, and not the "pearly-toothed prince" category.

I agree... I served in the military myself... I know the Generals get the tv time and the nice jobs at CNN but it's the ordinary man who make the military strong. And some of those men wasn't always nice people. But we all become brothers and sisters and would give our lives for each other...

I like the idea of the NW because it is more realistic than nobles saving the day... Nobles usually is after power, money, and conquest...

I think people have been so programed to think you need to be noble or rich or famous to do great things... That's why so many want Dany to save the day... Or Jon to become a Stark... It's like they think only if he become a Stark, that's the only way he can be a hero... But Jon can be just as much a heroe being a Snow and *******...

I don't want Jon to be legitimate or husband to Dany making him noble... I want him to be the ******* son of Ned Stark who save the world from the Others...

And I don't want all the people this ******* and his group of thieve, murders, and rapist saved to know they were facing doom...

That's what make heroes... When you make great sacrifice without songs and stories been written about you...

 

[NenadBulaja]

Backbone of military (or any other for that matter) strength of country is made by decent middle class working men. Nobody can dispute that.

Murderers, rapists, or any other type of criminals may be good in some military aspects (killing, execution of immoral orders...), but are far from being good material for main body of military, because they are mostly cowards. Again, honest, hardworking people used to take blows that life serves them without resorting to crime are much harder and more courageous in hard situations.

Everybody interested in bonds made in military and tough situations should watch Band of Brothers.

Jon is ******* even if Rhaegar and Lyenne are his parents, since they are not married. He is noble however,in the sense of being raised in castle and receiving tutoring equal to those of other noble sons. Had few friends without legitimate fathers, newer understood how can that be significant in any way in their character, since they had nothing to do with the circumstances of their birth.

Heroes are man and women doing what must be done when it must be done, without care for personal safety.

 

[Timba]

Backbone of military (or any other for that matter) strength of country is made by decent middle class working men. Nobody can dispute that.

Murderers, rapists, or any other type of criminals may be good in some military aspects (killing, execution of immoral orders...), but are far from being good material for main body of military, because they are mostly cowards. Again, honest, hardworking people used to take blows that life serves them without resorting to crime are much harder and more courageous in hard situations.

Everybody interested in bonds made in military and tough situations should watch Band of Brothers.

Jon is ******* even if Rhaegar and Lyenne are his parents, since they are not married. He is noble however,in the sense of being raised in castle and receiving tutoring equal to those of other noble sons. Had few friends without legitimate fathers, newer understood how can that be significant in any way in their character, since they had nothing to do with the circumstances of their birth.

Heroes are man and women doing what must be done when it must be done, without care for personal safety.

Love your first two paragraphs here. As a former military man can say with confidence you are right on target. There were always some of the "bad seed" element around of course, any large body of people there are always some, but people kept a wary eye on them because they were as likely to be a problem as the guy you were fighting.

 

[Needle]

The ******* issue, both in GRRM's world and our own (mostly in times past thank goodness) is a created one. Created to protect the "true born" children of a family. Most noble marriages were more pacts between houses than anything else, some resulted in love but that was not their point. The whole point being to produce children who would keep the houses united by being blood of both houses. Having bastards was accepted even expected when marriages are arranged (for the men anyway, what a deal huh!) but these bastards whether raised as nobles or not could not have any rights to house or inheritance, that would really upset the apple cart for the pact of houses!
It really is not significant to their character, except many have been told their whole lives that they are "less" and may set out to prove it, or that they have been robbed off their rights and will do anything to get them ex: Ramsey.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Meant that when people call somebody "*******", they do it in negative context (for whatever reason). Agree with all you wrote (yeah, we did have better deal, but that also changes, thanks to liberal nurses ).

Bolton is good example, him being ******* (aside doing anything to regain his birthright) has nothing to do with what he is now, but Bolton senior being his sire does...

 

[Needle]

Meant that when people call somebody "*******", they do it in negative context (for whatever reason). Agree with all you wrote (yeah, we did have better deal, but that also changes, thanks to liberal nurses ).

Bolton is good example, him being ******* (aside doing anything to regain his birthright) has nothing to do with what he is now, but Bolton senior being his sire does...

Hey what did I say to get called names! I am probably the weirdest mix ever! I was born of hippies and raised that way (yea, yea free love better living through chemistry all that!) then found out you usually get what you earn! Hard core feminists hate me! I say you want equality? I agree with you, just don't cry about it when they treat you like a man! But liberal, not likely!

Anyway back to bastards! Yes ******* is most always used as an insult. It was meant to be to keep them in their place, away from the nobility. If it could be implied that merely being a ******* made you inferior by birth, all the better. The meaning still sticks.

 

[Timba]

Hey what did I say to get called names! I am probably the weirdest mix ever! I was born of hippies and raised that way (yea, yea free love better living through chemistry all that!) then found out you usually get what you earn! Hard core feminists hate me! I say you want equality? I agree with you, just don't cry about it when they treat you like a man! But liberal, not likely!

Anyway back to bastards! Yes ******* is most always used as an insult. It was meant to be to keep them in their place, away from the nobility. If it could be implied that merely being a ******* made you inferior by birth, all the better. The meaning still sticks.

I think people have lost track of what liberal means:

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis)[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally, liberals support ideas such as constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, and freedom of religion.[3][4][5][6][7] These ideas are widely accepted, even by political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation.

I would say it was probably liberals that did away with the ready use of ******* as a label.

 

[Tywin]

"He used a liberal amount of huckleberry jam on his toast."

 

[The Imp]

I think people have lost track of what liberal means:

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis)[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally, liberals support ideas such as constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, and freedom of religion.[3][4][5][6][7] These ideas are widely accepted, even by political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation.

I would say it was probably liberals that did away with the ready use of ******* as a label.

You beat me to the punch.

I think that right wing extemists have been allowed to use the word "Liberal" as if it's some sort of 4 letter word. Social Security, Medicare and Public Education are 3 things that I'd be willing to bet that most Conservatives don't turn down, but would label as being socialistic or liberal. Every war that the united States has fought in has been done so on the backs of children from working class families, not the children of the ruich and priviledged (for the most part) and have been funded by tax dollars. The rich owner of that factory down the road depends on a taxpayer funded police and fire department to protect his/her property, and uses public raods that are built and maintained with tax dollars. I could go on and on

Liberalism in the USA has always been associated with equal rights regardless of race, religion, gender, etc. freedom of speech, freedom of the press, voting rights for ALL citizens, and social programs that benefit EVRYONE, and protection of the environment. I'm proud to lable myself as a "Liberal", although I lean much more to the center than I did in my youth, much in the way that Bill Clinton (our last great President) did. I just can't understand how people who are in the 99% spoort policies that benefit only the 1%.

But that's just me I guess.

And i apolgize for temporaily derailing the thread. I'd really like to contine any further discussion via PM

 

[Tywin]

Absolutely derailed, but you are forgiven.

We are pretty liberal with our forgiveness here.

 

[Timba]

Hey, a ******* discussion here and there between friends is is easily overlooked.

******* Stark or other as yet unknown parentage, Jon had better be alive, the NW needs him badly.

 

[Slovian]

Jon is ******* even if Rhaegar and Lyenne are his parents, since they are not married. He is noble however,in the sense of being raised in castle and receiving tutoring equal to those of other noble sons. Had few friends without legitimate fathers, newer understood how can that be significant in any way in their character, since they had nothing to do with the circumstances of their birth.

If Jon is a ******* why he was protected by almost half of white cloaks? And why so fiercely even after Targaryens defeat. We can guess that, if Lyanne was just Ryaegar lover with his baseborn son, she wouldn't be so important for elite guards to die for her. What if Reager meant Lyanna to born rightfull heir to the throne? In middle ages there were few solutions to cancel marriage and kings seldom have any problems with that (eg. english king Henry). If he secretly married her by some way this could be a chance for him to keep the hair who could return to throne in time (specially that Rhaegar was probably believing in some prophecy regarding this particular child).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not rating my own theory too much, and I don't care personally is Jon is highborn or baseborn, but I just want to point out there is lots of possibilities and a room for GRRM to surprise us.