(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

[NenadBulaja]

Yes, one of the things I would like to read the most in the ASoIaF is what happened in Tower of joy. And have much more detailed description of fight between remains of Kingsguard and Ned and his companions.

 

[Timba]

If Jon is a ******* why he was protected by almost half of white cloaks? And why so fiercely even after Targaryens defeat. We can guess that, if Lyanne was just Ryaegar lover with his baseborn son, she wouldn't be so important for elite guards to die for her. What if Reager meant Lyanna to born rightfull heir to the throne? In middle ages there were few solutions to cancel marriage and kings seldom have any problems with that (eg. english king Henry). If he secretly married her by some way this could be a chance for him to keep the hair who could return to throne in time (specially that Rhaegar was probably believing in some prophecy regarding this particular child).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not rating my own theory too much, and I don't care personally is Jon is highborn or baseborn, but I just want to point out there is lots of possibilities and a room for GRRM to surprise us.

I appear to be a little lost. Where does the theory that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Ryaegar come from? And where is this battle that protected him by white cloaks?

 

[Needle]

If Jon is a ******* why he was protected by almost half of white cloaks? And why so fiercely even after Targaryens defeat. We can guess that, if Lyanne was just Ryaegar lover with his baseborn son, she wouldn't be so important for elite guards to die for her. What if Reager meant Lyanna to born rightfull heir to the throne? In middle ages there were few solutions to cancel marriage and kings seldom have any problems with that (eg. english king Henry). If he secretly married her by some way this could be a chance for him to keep the hair who could return to throne in time (specially that Rhaegar was probably believing in some prophecy regarding this particular child).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not rating my own theory too much, and I don't care personally is Jon is highborn or baseborn, but I just want to point out there is lots of possibilities and a room for GRRM to surprise us.

I will just have to wait and see if R+L were truly wed, but it would not have to be Lyanna or Elia, the Targs often had 2 wives, the three headed dragon! Rheagar would have left protection for his new born son and his love regardless. Elia and the children should have been as safe as was possible right where they were. I also think if Rheagar beleived the prophecy was about this child he was more important than a mere heir to the throne, plus he would never have taken that away from Aegon as his firstborn son.

 

[Tywin]

I appear to be a little lost. Where does the theory that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Ryaegar come from? And where is this battle that protected him by white cloaks?

This is one of the more common theories on this forum, it's based off of a lot of clues in the first few books, specifically all of the Ned chapters where he remembered Lyanna making him "promise" to do something.

I didn't pick up on it at all when reading the books, but as soon as I saw it here it hit me as incredibly obvious.

 

[The Imp]

Timba, if you look for stuff relating to The Tower of Joy you'll get lots more info

 

[Mesanna]

If you fancy a nice long read Timba, there's a very detailed article on Tower of the Hand here:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

Read this and you too can be an R+L=J expert.

 

[Timba]

If you fancy a nice long read Timba, there's a very detailed article on Tower of the Hand here:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

Read this and you too can be an R+L=J expert.

Wow, holy moly and several other somewhat earthier exclamations that I shall refrain from typing.

I believe I need to sleep on this and let my subconscious mind work it over but this is a compelling line of thought and, in my mind at least, makes it even less likely that Jon is dead. What sense would there be to set up this deeply buried but on exposure somewhat obvious idea only to eliminate it rather ignobly at the wall.

I sense a growing need to begin my third read of the series, I suspect it will be a much different process with all the crackpot theories from this wonderful site running through my head.

Edit for additional thought. It doesn't seem correct to me though to describe the fierce battle at the Tower as being white cloaks protecting mother and babe. The mother had nothing to fear from her brother Ned and he certainly does not seem like the child killer type. I think Ned and his 6 companions were there to finish off the white cloaks, period. The white cloaks swear a life oath so when you participate in the killing of the man they swore the oath to it only makes sense that they must all die. No one would want highly talented killing machines bound by an oath to their predecessor running around the kingdom. further edit, or do I have this wrong and they swear to the crown and not the man?

 

[The Imp]

Wow, holy moly and several other somewhat earthier exclamations that I shall refrain from typing.

I believe I need to sleep on this and let my subconscious mind work it over but this is a compelling line of thought and, in my mind at least, makes it even less likely that Jon is dead. What sense would there be to set up this deeply buried but on exposure somewhat obvious idea only to eliminate it rather ignobly at the wall.

I sense a growing need to begin my third read of the series, I suspect it will be a much different process with all the crackpot theories from this wonderful site running through my head.

Edit for additional thought. It doesn't seem correct to me though to describe the fierce battle at the Tower as being white cloaks protecting mother and babe. The mother had nothing to fear from her brother Ned and he certainly does not seem like the child killer type. I think Ned and his 6 companions were there to finish off the white cloaks, period. The white cloaks swear a life oath so when you participate in the killing of the man they swore the oath to it only makes sense that they must all die. No one would want highly talented killing machines bound by an oath to their predecessor running around the kingdom. further edit, or do I have this wrong and they swear to the crown and not the man?

My understanding is that the oath that the Kingsguard takeis to the Crown, not to any particular king. Their position is for life, unless someone such as Cersei decides you are too old, etc. As for Ned and his companions going to the ToJ, it's not clear to me that he thought he was rescuing Lyanna or going to kill the remaining Kingsguard, or maybe both or neither.

 

[Slovian]

Edit for additional thought. It doesn't seem correct to me though to describe the fierce battle at the Tower as being white cloaks protecting mother and babe. The mother had nothing to fear from her brother Ned and he certainly does not seem like the child killer type. I think Ned and his 6 companions were there to finish off the white cloaks, period. The white cloaks swear a life oath so when you participate in the killing of the man they swore the oath to it only makes sense that they must all die. No one would want highly talented killing machines bound by an oath to their predecessor running around the kingdom. further edit, or do I have this wrong and they swear to the crown and not the man?

We think that Ned couldn't hurt his sister and baby - but remember he was Roberts the most loyal companion, and Robert was crazy about Targaryens (he appraciate Lannisters killing royal children during a sack of Kings Landing). And for Kingsguard it was obvious that giving him back his sister (allready dying) and baby was like giving it back to Robert. For Ned it was tought choice, and he sacrifice a lot to save Jon. Ned also isn't ideal person, and his understaning of honor, law and duty is very rigid and hard. Rememeber how he sentenced to death Jorah Mormont. But this is one of events that show that for Ned only thing that stands above honor is family.

EDIT. And to the argument he was there just to kill 3 white cloaks. If he would be there to just finish them off he would take portion of army he was commanding or just wait for main host to sweep this lands. He knew probably that confrontation with Kingsguard might be as hard as it turns out to be. He was there only with closest companions to keep low profile because he needed to keep some details of this riding away from Robert.

EDIT. One more thing. I remember that Ned while entering Throne Room to obtain regency from Joffrey was thinking of some boy that require time to grow up, that he would put on throne. I lend my book so I can't cite. I was curious who he was thinking of. At first i was thinking of Gendry than Edric Storm when he comes up. But maybe it was Jon?

 

[Koopa]

Jorah Mormont was a slave-trader. Who knows jow many slaves died under his watch (on the ships, ...) . he deserved to die.

 

[Tywin]

Jorah Mormont was a slave-trader. Who knows jow many slaves died under his watch (on the ships, ...) . he deserved to die.

My recollection is that he sold some convicted criminals into slavery, it sounds like you are equating him with 17th-18th century African slave traders.

 

[Needle]

EDIT. One more thing. I remember that Ned while entering Throne Room to obtain regency from Joffrey was thinking of some boy that require time to grow up, that he would put on throne. I lend my book so I can't cite. I was curious who he was thinking of. At first i was thinking of Gendry than Edric Storm when he comes up. But maybe it was Jon?

You may be thinking of when Robert was dying, Ned promised to take care of Roberts children, Robert of course was speaking of Joffery, Ned was thinking of the bastards.

 

[The Imp]

My recollection is that he sold some convicted criminals into slavery, it sounds like you are equating him with 17th-18th century African slave traders.

They were people he thought were poachers. They recieved no trial. and Jorah's actions were based on greed and desperation. There were men at The Wall who had been poachers, a far better fate than being sold into slavery. I thought it was very "karmic' of GRRM to have Jorah suffer the same fate.

 

[NenadBulaja]

But I did not see that it did him any good. He would probably do everything the same given opportunity.

 

[garion77]

We think that Ned couldn't hurt his sister and baby - but remember he was Roberts the most loyal companion, and Robert was crazy about Targaryens (he appraciate Lannisters killing royal children during a sack of Kings Landing). And for Kingsguard it was obvious that giving him back his sister (allready dying) and baby was like giving it back to Robert. For Ned it was tought choice, and he sacrifice a lot to save Jon. Ned also isn't ideal person, and his understaning of honor, law and duty is very rigid and hard. Rememeber how he sentenced to death Jorah Mormont. But this is one of events that show that for Ned only thing that stands above honor is family.

EDIT. And to the argument he was there just to kill 3 white cloaks. If he would be there to just finish them off he would take portion of army he was commanding or just wait for main host to sweep this lands. He knew probably that confrontation with Kingsguard might be as hard as it turns out to be. He was there only with closest companions to keep low profile because he needed to keep some details of this riding away from Robert.

EDIT. One more thing. I remember that Ned while entering Throne Room to obtain regency from Joffrey was thinking of some boy that require time to grow up, that he would put on throne. I lend my book so I can't cite. I was curious who he was thinking of. At first i was thinking of Gendry than Edric Storm when he comes up. But maybe it was Jon?

I just realized that Ned did fight the Kingsguard with only 6 of his most trusted friends... He could have brought his main army and kill them easily... Why risk so much with just 6 men? It had to be to hide from Robert Lyanna pregnancy... And to protect Jon... Because as long as Jon lived, Robert hold on the throne would always be threaten... And any hold his heirs would have would be threaten...

And I can't see Ned cheating on Cat either... Jon was born soon after Ned went off to war... Because Jon and Robb were close in age... I can't see Ned just leaving his new wife with child and messing with someone else... That's more like Robert... Not Ned... I can't see Ned cheating for any reason...

And it was something Tywin Lannister said that reinforced Ned not cheating on his wife... When Tywin got Robb's wife to seduce him to break his alliance with the Freys, he knew Robb would marry her... Tywin said he is his father's son... Robb was a virgin up to that point... I can't see Ned leaving his wife bed and soon after jumping in another woman's bed...

And the promise he made to his sister on her death bed... Did they say Lyanne died in a bed of blood and roses?

 

[viZion]

Wow, holy moly and several other somewhat earthier exclamations that I shall refrain from typing

That's the exact same reaction pretty much everyone has after reading that page for the first time.

Edit for additional thought. It doesn't seem correct to me though to describe the fierce battle at the Tower as being white cloaks protecting mother and babe.

Ned had no idea what he was going to find at the Tower of Joy. He had no idea Lyanna was pregnant and he especially didn't know that a baby was being born right that second. He was there to rescue Lyanna. Up until that point, Ned and Robert thought that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna. The Kingsguard was there to protect Rhaegar's baby not Lyanna. Lyanna was not royalty but the baby was. I got the feeling that Ned was surprised to find the Kingsguard there at all or at the very least surprised they were going to put up a fight to protect Lyanna. It wasn't until he got to Lyanna that he figured out that they were protecting the royal baby.

Anyway, once he realized the real reason Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna, he swore to protect the baby from Robert by claiming it as his own. He knew that Robert's absolute hatred of the Targaryens would be a death sentence for that baby if Robert ever found out its true origins.

Long story short: The Kingsguard fought Ned and his band because they were protecting the Rhaegar's baby because they figured Ned was there to take the baby to Robert where it would be murdered.

Or so the theory goes.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Exactly, with one little comment.

Ned protected baby because Lyanna made him swore, although that does not exclude possibility that he also knew that to be only way to protect it from Robert.

 

[garion77]

The only serious problem I see with Jon being Rhaegars son is the hair... All Targaryens have silver hair... Some people say that Jon could have the Starks hair but the Starks gene isn't as strong as Targaryen... Because Robb and Sansa hair is Tully color...

But all Targaryen has silver hair... That's the only thing I see wrong with the R+L=J theory... Jon has no Targaryen features at all... And I think Maester Aemon would have notice something about Jon if he had Targaryen blood... I can't see Maester Aemon missing it...

All Barantheon have dark hair and all Targaryen have silver hair... And it don't seem it matter what the hair color of their mates... That's how Arrye and Ned figured out Joff and the rest of Cersei kids wasn't Roberts...

 

[The Imp]

The only serious problem I see with Jon being Rhaegars son is the hair... All Targaryens have silver hair... Some people say that Jon could have the Starks hair but the Starks gene isn't as strong as Targaryen... Because Robb and Sansa hair is Tully color...

But all Targaryen has silver hair... That's the only thing I see wrong with the R+L=J theory... Jon has no Targaryen features at all... And I think Maester Aemon would have notice something about Jon if he had Targaryen blood... I can't see Maester Aemon missing it...

All Barantheon have dark hair and all Targaryen have silver hair... And it don't seem it matter what the hair color of their mates... That's how Arrye and Ned figured out Joff and the rest of Cersei kids wasn't Roberts...

There are a couple of problems in your agrument. The first is that it's true that two of the Stark kids had/have auburn hair, but 3 have the dark hair of the Starks. Even if it was true that all of the kids had auburn hair, it still wouldn't prove that the Stark genetics would be weaker than that of the Targs, only that it's weaker than the Tully's (although that isn't proven either). Usually the gene for light colored hair is dominated by the gene for dark hair. It would probably be a safe bet to say that the product of a Targ and a Baratheon would have dark hair.

The second problem, and I have to do some research to support this, is that I'm pretty sure that not every Targ ever born had silver hair. In any event, I don't think we will know the answer to this one for a while

 

[garion77]

There are a couple of problems in your agrument. The first is that it's true that two of the Stark kids had/have auburn hair, but 3 have the dark hair of the Starks. Even if it was true that all of the kids had auburn hair, it still wouldn't prove that the Stark genetics would be weaker than that of the Targs, only that it's weaker than the Tully's (although that isn't proven either). Usually the gene for light colored hair is dominated by the gene for dark hair. It would probably be a safe bet to say that the product of a Targ and a Baratheon would have dark hair.

The second problem, and I have to do some research to support this, is that I'm pretty sure that not every Targ ever born had silver hair. In any event, I don't think we will know the answer to this one for a while

I didn't say that all the Stark kids had auburn hair... I said Robb and Sansa... And I think a product of Baratheon and Targaryen would produce silver hair... And it is said that Baratheon and Targaryen is distant cousins... That helped legitimize Roberts claim to the throne...

I believe all Targaryens have silver hair... That's why Connington dyed Aeagon's hair black.