(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

Jon isn't a Stark... He's one ******* of many other bastards fathered by lords for thousand of years.... Most lords have bastards all over the place. Even Robert bastards couldn't claim Storm Ends or anything else. No lord will follow a *******... That's why Roose made Ramsey Legit... It was the only way he could marry Arya Stark...

Stannis was trying to make Jon a Stark because that was the only way to get the North to follow Jon. If Stannis could have used Jon Snow to rally the North, he wouldn't even try to make him a Stark. Even Lord Manderly wouldn't support Stannis without Rickon... They need a true born Stark. Jon couldn't even sit at the same seats with the Lords.

******* have no claims and especially a deserter from the NW which Jon would have been... And this ******* leading a wildling army... The Northern lords hate Ramsey but they do recognize lords and bastards... They would support Ramsey any day not because they like him... But if bastards could start over throwing a legally anointed lord, all hell would break out... They all got many bastards...

You argument that they hate Ramsey so much they would support him just don't fly... Most know that Jeyne isn't Arya... Most know the Freys murdered Robb their king... Most know Roose was part of the murder... But none do anything... Roose was legally appointed the Lord of the North until a Stark is found... Not a Snow... That's why Manderly need Rickon...

Jon gave Stannis good advice not to march the wildling north... Why would he make the same mistake?

I am not so sure most know that Jeyne isn't Arya. At one point Theon thinks about telling Mance (Abel) and the spearwives but then decides not to. At another point when Jeyne speaks to loosely he admonishes her to remember who she is, Arya, or the **** will really hit the fan. I would agree that anyone who had known the real Arya like Theon did would recognize that Jeyne was not the real article but who would that be? Most of them are dead. Possibly Manderly who is clearly no fool but given how young Arya was at the start of the series I am not certain that Manderly had ever seen her. I am thinking he did not move his tonage around the countryside with any regularity.:D Do you have a reference that leads you to this conclusion?
 
Roose has legitimised Ramsay (which is why he isn't called Ramsay Snow anymore).



This shows two things:
  1. For Roose, his bloodline was important; so in the absence of a legitimate heir, Ramsay would have to do.
  2. Roose knew that he had to make Ramsay legitimate, otherwise he might not have left a legal descendant. Why else do so?

Exactly! No lord will follow a *******... Being legitimized is very important. Roose understood that. He might be evil but not stupid. That's why he said Ramsey will kill any kids he have legitimately with his Frey wife and she will grieve... Roose is one cold ******* but realistic...

Jon will never be lord of Winterfell because he is Lord Commander of the NW... Jon took the oath and he take it to heart... When Stannis offered Jon Winterfell and the Stark name, it was all he dreamed about since he was a boy... But his honor outweighed any dreams...

Jon is AA... He is the hero of legend... And all heros must make great sacrifices... And Jon's sacrifice is his greatest wish... To be a Stark...
 
Exactly! No lord will follow a *******... Being legitimized is very important. Roose understood that. He might be evil but not stupid. That's why he said Ramsey will kill any kids he have legitimately with his Frey wife and she will grieve... Roose is one cold ******* but realistic...

Who is to say that if John was to march south it would be to make himself lord of the north and not his sister. ******* or not he is Neds last son as far as anyone knows and for many he is not only a Stark but a Dayne as well. I have just started to reread the first book and I think you all make way to much of him being a *******. His uncle benjen was surprised he was not at the high table, he was not seated there because of Catelyn. He had to go to the wall because of Catelyn.
 
Jon may or may not be AA but I think it's more likely that he is. However, sometimes I like to forget the books and just look at it from a practical standpoint.

There are really two main candidates: Dany and Jon. Both could qualify according to the prophecy. I think Dany's claim more closely follows the prophecy though since we have to make so many allowances for Jon (his wounds were smoking! someone was crying so that's salt! etc). But, again, let's forget that for a minute.

I think Jon is AA because it's simply more practical. He's already there at the Wall. He already knows about the Others. He's already got an army that believes in the Others and recognizes their threat. If Dany is AA then we'll need another two books just to get her out of Meereen, to Westeros, conquer Westeros, convince her and the rest of the Kingdom that the Others aren't an old nanny's tale, and then get up to the Wall to defeat them. That's just not practical. Therefore, Jon is AA :p.
 
Jon may or may not be AA but I think it's more likely that he is. However, sometimes I like to forget the books and just look at it from a practical standpoint.

There are really two main candidates: Dany and Jon. Both could qualify according to the prophecy. I think Dany's claim more closely follows the prophecy though since we have to make so many allowances for Jon (his wounds were smoking! someone was crying so that's salt! etc). But, again, let's forget that for a minute.

I think Jon is AA because it's simply more practical. He's already there at the Wall. He already knows about the Others. He's already got an army that believes in the Others and recognizes their threat. If Dany is AA then we'll need another two books just to get her out of Meereen, to Westeros, conquer Westeros, convince her and the rest of the Kingdom that the Others aren't an old nanny's tale, and then get up to the Wall to defeat them. That's just not practical. Therefore, Jon is AA :p.

Very good points. Jon is AA because of the NW Oath. Read it... The Imp posted the oath in a few post back... "I am the sword in the darkness"... I am the fire against the cold"... The night watch is Lightbringer and Jon will wield them against the others... It's no flaming sword...

Lightbringer has always been the Night Watch itself... Just read the oath... It's all in there...
 
Jon may or may not be AA but I think it's more likely that he is. However, sometimes I like to forget the books and just look at it from a practical standpoint.

There are really two main candidates: Dany and Jon. Both could qualify according to the prophecy. I think Dany's claim more closely follows the prophecy though since we have to make so many allowances for Jon (his wounds were smoking! someone was crying so that's salt! etc). But, again, let's forget that for a minute.

I think Jon is AA because it's simply more practical. He's already there at the Wall. He already knows about the Others. He's already got an army that believes in the Others and recognizes their threat. If Dany is AA then we'll need another two books just to get her out of Meereen, to Westeros, conquer Westeros, convince her and the rest of the Kingdom that the Others aren't an old nanny's tale, and then get up to the Wall to defeat them. That's just not practical. Therefore, Jon is AA :p.

I do not think the quote "in the cold night air the wound was smoking" has anything to do with Jon possibly being AA. I can tell you from first hand experience that a wound in subzero weather appears to smoke because the warm blood is steaming in the cold air. I really think that in this case a cigar is just a cigar.
 
I do not think the quote "in the cold night air the wound was smoking" has anything to do with Jon possibly being AA. I can tell you from first hand experience that a wound in subzero weather appears to smoke because the warm blood is steaming in the cold air. I really think that in this case a cigar is just a cigar.
Maybe we all read too much into each word. Perhaps GRRm just didn't think about the implications of using the word "smoke" when he really should have used "steam", assuming that the quote has no bigger meaning. On a forum such as this though you're going to find theories that use single words, or subtle shades of difference as the "proof". It's part of the fun :D
 
Maybe we all read too much into each word. Perhaps GRRM just didn't think about the implications of using the word "smoke" when he really should have used "steam", assuming that the quote has no bigger meaning. On a forum such as this though you're going to find theories that use single words, or subtle shades of difference as the "proof". It's part of the fun :D
The point is, though, that GRRM, unlike the rest of us, knows what lies behind the various prophecies. So, when using words familiar from a prophecy about a character who he's linked explicitly with that prophecy, he's highly unlikely to be that careless.

We, on the other hand, are free from the truth of any of these prophecies (if that's what they really are), and can extrapolate and guess to our hearts' content.

All of which doesn't mean to say that GRRM isn't playing with us, or using smoke (and mirrors) to lead us astray.
 
I think GRRM is totally playing with us, and probably giggled like a six year old when he wrote that passage. I'm sold on Dany as AA and I think this thing with Jon and the smoke and tears is a complete red herring from Mr. Martin (just like when he threw in that passage about a fishwife having a baby to Eddard Stark). I think he probably got a kick out of knowing the fandom would go wild with speculation when they read it. (Maybe it's his revenge for all the abuse he had to take because of the delays in releasing the book!) :)

Off-topic addendum:
I just read about this on Tower of the Hand ... If you fancy a Syrio T-shirt, head here:

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You've only got about 10 hours left if you want one.
 
The point is, though, that GRRM, unlike the rest of us, knows what lies behind the various prophecies. So, when using words familiar from a prophecy about a character who he's linked explicitly with that prophecy, he's highly unlikely to be that careless.

We, on the other hand, are free from the truth of any of these prophecies (if that's what they really are), and can extrapolate and guess to our hearts' content.

All of which doesn't mean to say that GRRM isn't playing with us, or using smoke (and mirrors) to lead us astray.
That's been my point every time I've responded to people talking about this. GRRM is too good of a writer not to know that using the word smoke in that situation would raise red flags. I don't beleive he is playing with us intentionally, as I remember very few red herrings along the way, but I guess it's possible. The point that GRRM knows each prophecy and foreshadowing better than any of us is spot on, and leads me to believe that the use of the word smoke here has meaning. As with everything else though, nothing can be proven, so people can beleive whatever they choose , and until the solution is revealed no one can be sure they're correct.
 
I do not think the quote "in the cold night air the wound was smoking" has anything to do with Jon possibly being AA. I can tell you from first hand experience that a wound in subzero weather appears to smoke because the warm blood is steaming in the cold air. I really think that in this case a cigar is just a cigar.

I actually totally agree with you. I go running in the cold all the time and when I'm done there's usually steam rising off of me and, so far, I haven't discovered anything magical about myself. I also don't think tears really count as salt. Neither does the salted ham or whatever in the stores count. These are just the things that have been suggested by others as possible ways to fulfill the prophecy that would make Jon be AA. We're all trying our very best here ;).

However, as weak as Jon's prophecy fulfillment qualifications are, there may be something we've missed that would still qualify him to fulfill the prophecy. Or maybe the prophecy isn't meant to be taken literally and he's qualified in others ways that are more subtle (like the NW being Lightbringer).

I would rather Dany be AA because it really seems like, for the first three books, she was the perfect candidate. But unfortunately now that she's entrenched in Meereen and mooning over blue-bearded mercenaries I just don't see how she could possibly make it in time to figure out the Others are a threat and then stop them. Remember, the ONLY people in the entire Kingdom that believes in the Others are the people on the Wall. To everyone else in the entire world the Others are just a story you tell your kids to scare them at night. Seems like GRRM has pretty much written himself into a corner where the only plausible possibility now is Jon as AA unless he's planning on writing like 4 more books and turning this into the second coming of the Wheel of Time.
 
I actually totally agree with you. I go running in the cold all the time and when I'm done there's usually steam rising off of me and, so far, I haven't discovered anything magical about myself. I also don't think tears really count as salt. Neither does the salted ham or whatever in the stores count. These are just the things that have been suggested by others as possible ways to fulfill the prophecy that would make Jon be AA. We're all trying our very best here ;).

However, as weak as Jon's prophecy fulfillment qualifications are, there may be something we've missed that would still qualify him to fulfill the prophecy. Or maybe the prophecy isn't meant to be taken literally and he's qualified in others ways that are more subtle (like the NW being Lightbringer).

I would rather Dany be AA because it really seems like, for the first three books, she was the perfect candidate. But unfortunately now that she's entrenched in Meereen and mooning over blue-bearded mercenaries I just don't see how she could possibly make it in time to figure out the Others are a threat and then stop them. Remember, the ONLY people in the entire Kingdom that believes in the Others are the people on the Wall. To everyone else in the entire world the Others are just a story you tell your kids to scare them at night. Seems like GRRM has pretty much written himself into a corner where the only plausible possibility now is Jon as AA unless he's planning on writing like 4 more books and turning this into the second coming of the Wheel of Time.
''

Very good observation... Danny couldn't be AA now since it's only two books left... She too busy chasing Harpies and being goggled eyed over mercenaries... It's like he have Danny in reverse growth... She was much more mature the first three books....

And it only fitting that a Stark or a ******* Stark fight the Others... It's always been the Starks who came when the NW called... And it will be a ******* Stark who once again defend the wall... I just don't see a Targaryen coming to save the day... If that happens, it make Jon completely useless... I really don't see the point for him if that happens...

And if Danny come with her Dragons and unite the kingdoms, defeat the bad guys, and destroy the Others, we might as well make her a God... It would be a huge letdown and GRRM books will end up like every other teenage fantasy book having some all powerful and all good savior who beat the bad guys up with one hand tied behind her back...

But GRRM is a better author than that...
 
I actually totally agree with you. I go running in the cold all the time and when I'm done there's usually steam rising off of me and, so far, I haven't discovered anything magical about myself. I also don't think tears really count as salt. Neither does the salted ham or whatever in the stores count. These are just the things that have been suggested by others as possible ways to fulfill the prophecy that would make Jon be AA. We're all trying our very best here ;).

However, as weak as Jon's prophecy fulfillment qualifications are, there may be something we've missed that would still qualify him to fulfill the prophecy. Or maybe the prophecy isn't meant to be taken literally and he's qualified in others ways that are more subtle (like the NW being Lightbringer).

I would rather Dany be AA because it really seems like, for the first three books, she was the perfect candidate. But unfortunately now that she's entrenched in Meereen and mooning over blue-bearded mercenaries I just don't see how she could possibly make it in time to figure out the Others are a threat and then stop them. Remember, the ONLY people in the entire Kingdom that believes in the Others are the people on the Wall. To everyone else in the entire world the Others are just a story you tell your kids to scare them at night. Seems like GRRM has pretty much written himself into a corner where the only plausible possibility now is Jon as AA unless he's planning on writing like 4 more books and turning this into the second coming of the Wheel of Time.

''

Very good observation... Danny couldn't be AA now since it's only two books left... She too busy chasing Harpies and being goggled eyed over mercenaries... It's like he have Danny in reverse growth... She was much more mature the first three books....

And it only fitting that a Stark or a ******* Stark fight the Others... It's always been the Starks who came when the NW called... And it will be a ******* Stark who once again defend the wall... I just don't see a Targaryen coming to save the day... If that happens, it make Jon completely useless... I really don't see the point for him if that happens...

And if Danny come with her Dragons and unite the kingdoms, defeat the bad guys, and destroy the Others, we might as well make her a God... It would be a huge letdown and GRRM books will end up like every other teenage fantasy book having some all powerful and all good savior who beat the bad guys up with one hand tied behind her back...

But GRRM is a better author than that...

Don't get me wrong, I like all the ideas, and suppositions, and ponderings as to who is AA and it would not bother me in any way if it turns out to be Jon but the smoke/steam word selection seems unusually ephemeral to me.

Not certain Dany can't make it to where the action is.
Consider that now the dragons are large enough to ride.
Consider we have prior evidence the dragons are able to "fish" in the ocean. Consider the reality that travel by air across or along the coasts of the ocean would be pretty darn quick in comparison to other forms of transportation.
Consider that with the dragons on her side that while she will need an army eventually it is not like she needs a lot more protection for the period of time this approach would require for her "army" to catch up with her by more conventional means of travel.

Not saying this is going to happen mind you but it does not seem all that far fetched to me for Dany to get herself into the middle of the action. I suppose a great deal depends on how large a time frame these next 2 books will cover. I am really hoping he pulls the finish together in the next 2 books though as I really want to finish this before my own timeline runs out. :eek:
 
Don't get me wrong, I like all the ideas, and suppositions, and ponderings as to who is AA and it would not bother me in any way if it turns out to be Jon but the smoke/steam word selection seems unusually ephemeral to me.

Not certain Dany can't make it to where the action is.
Consider that now the dragons are large enough to ride.
Consider we have prior evidence the dragons are able to "fish" in the ocean. Consider the reality that travel by air across or along the coasts of the ocean would be pretty darn quick in comparison to other forms of transportation.
Consider that with the dragons on her side that while she will need an army eventually it is not like she needs a lot more protection for the period of time this approach would require for her "army" to catch up with her by more conventional means of travel.

Not saying this is going to happen mind you but it does not seem all that far fetched to me for Dany to get herself into the middle of the action. I suppose a great deal depends on how large a time frame these next 2 books will cover. I am really hoping he pulls the finish together in the next 2 books though as I really want to finish this before my own timeline runs out. :eek:

That's too much Dany... If she do all of that, it makes everyone else useless... Why even write seven books that end with a Dany riding her huge Dragons to burn everyone up? It wasn't the Targaryens who stood against the Others... It was the Children, North, and NW...

Jon will handle the Others... Dany with unite the Seven Kingdoms... One person doing everything is just too David Eddings... I enjoyed his books as a teenager and when I first started reading fantasy... I use to enjoy reading about an all power figure who had a all power weapon that can beat everything... But I grew out of that...

What I like about GRRM books is the whole idea of the NW... These aren't noble sons or shiny teeth princes... These were some nasty guys who murdered and raped... These guys probably murdered and raped children... Can you imagine the WORLD being saved by the scum of the earth? Not some nobles who never tell a lie?

I think many people are looking for the noble savior... They want Dany to come to the rescue with her Targaryen blood... They want Jon to become a Stark so he will be a legitimate noble and can sit at the high table...

But what if the world is save by ordinary men who had passes that wasn't anything noble... And what if these ordinary men was lead by a *******?

Wouldn't that be interesting?
 
Yeah, I know Dany can technically make it to the action at the Wall in time. Her dragons are big enough to be game changers now. The key is that Dany doesn't know anything about the Others. And if she does know something about them, it's that they are just a scary story you tell around the campfire. She does not believe in them. Practically no one in the entire world believes in these monsters except the people at the Wall. So the difficult part isn't really getting Dany to the Wall, it's convincing her (and everyone else) that there's a reason to go to the Wall.

Even if it turns out that the Others invade the North that still has nothing to do with Dany and the South. The people in the South will hear rumors about some fighting in the North and then continue playing their game of thrones for wealth and power. The South (and by extension Dany) doesn't really give a crap about the North anyway.

Long story short, it would seem that Jon is the main hope against the Others. The only thing I don't know is how to reconcile all of this with the heads of the dragons prophecies because now it seems like Dany doesn't have a lot of purpose, either...
 
I have to add to this discussion that all the stretching and hunting we do to fit Jon into the prophecy of AA (smoking wounds, salty tears, etc.) may be totally unneeded. We base Dany's qualification on her birth, which fits the prophecy nicely. You have to remember, as of now we know nothing what so ever about Jon's birth. All the needed ingredients may already be present from his birth.
 
So you're saying that Jon may have been born on the Fingers, as suggested in the tale told to Davos?

It may be that Ned's (supposed) dalliance with the fisherman's daughter would provide the link to salt.
 
So you're saying that Jon may have been born on the Fingers, as suggested in the tale told to Davos?

It may be that Ned's (supposed) dalliance with the fisherman's daughter would provide the link to salt.
Well no, had not even considered the fishwomen aspect! :eek:
Just that we do not even know for sure who Jon's parents are much less the circumstances surrounding his birth. There was a war building at the time had to be lots of oppurtunity for salt and smoke to apply.
 
You're right: we know nothing.... ;)

I did wonder why GRRM had included this mention of a possible origin for Jon in Davos's POV. I'm quite prepared to believe that this was GRRM laying a false trail (with a false link to the prophecy), the hint of its false nature being the child's name: if Ned was the father, why would the child be named after Jon Arryn?.
 
the hint of its false nature being the child's name: if Ned was the father, why would the child be named after Jon Arryn?.

I don't quite get what you're saying here. If Ned is Jon's father then it makes perfect sense to name him after Jon Arryn. Ned looked up to Jon Arryn like a second father. Maybe I'm misunderstanding...
 

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