(More) dialogue punctuation questions

Hmm.

Would this be what you'd need to make the sentence work?

"By the time I left the pub" Richard lifted the blind, "I could barely see them." or

"By the time I left the pub," Richard lifted the blind "I could barely see them."

Or, would it be possible to use Ursa's version (*) without giving anyone kittens?

"By the time I left the pub--" Richard lifted the blind "--I could barely see them."

It breaks my heart (**) that there doesn't seem to be a way of breaking a sentence of dialogue without using 'said' or equivalent.

We did have a whole thread about this, but my example there was a bad one and could be split into two sentences, so I got a bit confused.

(*) I think this is Ursa's version, apologies if I misunderstood.
(**) Perhaps that's an overstatement, but it does make me mildly unhappy.
 
It was my version - and I'm pretty sure it's OK (I don't have my copyedited manuscript to hand to check if I used this construction in my book). Neither of your two versions with missing commas is correct, I do know that.

It's perfectly legitimate to break a line of dialogue without a speech tag, but you do need punctuation of some kind.

ETA: I found this PDF article that shows use of dashes outside the quotes, but that looks a bit odd to me:

http://www.crayne.com/articles/Dial...,-and-Vary-the-Structure-of-Your-Dialogue.pdf

Ultimately, though, I wouldn't sweat these edge cases too much - you're unlikely to use them that often, so just focus on using the common dialogue punctuation patterns correctly. If the work gets published, your editor will have any punctuation changed to house style anyway. I've switched to always using double quotes for dialogue, as it avoids search'n'replace errors when getting a manuscript proofed.
 
I would have said "decrypted" as well, not "deencrypted". If that's an accurate quote, Mr Anderson's watch commander needs to brush up on his technical jargon!
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Indeed it is an accurate quote! Just quietly, I wouldn't recommended the book - quite disappointing.

"By the time I left the pub," Richard lifted the blind "I could barely see them."
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I don't know the strict grammatical rules to do with dialogue (I usually just go with whether it looks right after I've written it and that hasn't steered me wrong so far), but I'm pretty sure this example is wrong.
 
Following on from HJ, and I'll say it louder, I got one of Anderson's books out recently and put it down after 5 pages, something jarring with me and I decided to read something else instead.

I wonder now was it something to do with the sentence construction/punc that I found a little off. I'll maybe go back and revisit, see if I can put my finger on it.
 
Perhaps it could be

"By the time I left the pub..." Richard paused to lift the blind. "...I could barely see them."

I've seen that sort of thing in older (19thC) fiction. DBC Pierre is quite a trendy writer, so it might be passe.
 
Hilarious Joke said:
Indeed it is an accurate quote! Just quietly, I wouldn't recommended the book - quite disappointing.



I don't know the strict grammatical rules to do with dialogue (I usually just go with whether it looks right after I've written it and that hasn't steered me wrong so far), but I'm pretty sure this example is wrong.
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I'm with you on that, HJ. I think Anne's got it right. And the way I'd take, to get out of it would be:

Richard lifted the blind. "I could barely see them by the time I left the pub."
 
Hex said:
(*) I think this is Ursa's version, apologies if I misunderstood.
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I didn't think that I had a version.

What I did have was a misconception: I got confused between DPC Pierre's original version, which didn't have any speech attribution, and the one where you inserted the word, said.

(I hope this explains my nonsense assertion in my earlier post that because there was a speech attribution, merely changing the colon to a comma would repair the sentence. It wouldn't. As Anna Lyle said, different punctuation is needed to separate the two independent parts - the dialogue and the narrative - of the sentence.)
 
Hex said:
I was just reading a thing by DBC Pierre in The Guardian (it's here). He was writing about dialogue and he did this:

"By the time I left the pub," Richard lifted the blind: "I could barely see them."

Is that okay? I had absorbed from somewhere (possibly a dream) that it was Bad to break a sentence of dialogue without using a dialogue tag. So:

"By the time I left the pub," Richard said, lifting the blind, "I could barely see them."

But are both okay?
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IMO the first example looks just plain clumsy and wrong in different ways:

- incorrect use of punctuation
- incorrect construction
- overall, sloppy use of words

I admit, I don't know these rules, and he may be technically correct.

However, as an editor, I would have that corrected or rewritten to something like the second form, as that is far more conventional - it is easier to read, too.
 
Maybe they don't edit as hard once you've won the Booker... Artistic license and all that.

(I am artistic, you are mistaken, s/he is an idiot etc)

It was in a 'Guardian masterclass' on writing interesting dialogue in fiction. Hmm.
 
There's another thread over in General Book Discussion - http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/534538-a-private-letter-from-genre-to-literature-by.html - that I feel has a bit of (perhaps tangential) relevance. Call me a cynic if you will, but I think you can get away with violating the sentence construction rules more if you're writing 'highbrow' literary fiction rather than genre fiction. Do it as a science fiction or fantasy writer and it's suddenly proof that you're writing trash.

For my own part, I've never seen the difference between literary and genre fiction. It's supposed to transport you to another place, hopefully make you think. So whilst I wouldn't really use Pierre's form myself, it is a valid form of sentence construction in literature. I've got a copy of Vernon God Little lying about somewhere. Might be time to read it and see if he has got anything interesting to say.

Anyway, just a thought.:)
 
*weep* I just found this description of how to punctuate the interuption of sentences without using 'he said'. The world is out to confuse me.

The guide says to do it like this. That has too many commas, though -- does it?
"You," I thrust a finger at him decidedly, "are the reason the world hates us. You know how it works; I'm not going to teach you. But if you just let the poor get poorer, things will fall apart."

​
 
Um, I know you'll groan Hex, but that looks exactly right to me. A thing of beauty. Sorry.

And I'm afraid I can't write without the I said, laughed, grinned, paused... de nada forever, I just need it to understand the dialogue. So old fashioned.
 
Hex said:
The guide says to do it like this. That has too many commas, though -- does it?

"You," I thrust a finger at him decidedly, "are the reason the world hates us. You know how it works; I'm not going to teach you. But if you just let the poor get poorer, things will fall apart."
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Again, I feel I have to point this out -- this is non-standard, and if you choose to do it, traditionalists will scour the ground you have walked on with salt. You cannot "thrust a finger at him decidely" the word "you". The sentence as constructed attempts to apply the action of thrusting to that word, which is clearly nonsense. The fact that this is in a guide to punctuation, and that its writers apparently think this is normal, makes me despair. (Did I say that in the last example?)

Edit: I've just read some stuff from the link. Sorry, but AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE!
 
Well I'd stick an 'I said' in your example sentence up there, Hex. Looks and sounds better to me!
 
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