(More) dialogue punctuation questions

[Hex]

Could you use ellipses in one example in the story --

"It's not that I don't..." she strugged to find the appropriate word "...enjoy these discussions about punctuation..."

and then dashes in another:

"I will not put up with this --" she smacked the table-- "ridiculous obsession with punctuation!"

That might in fact be what you guys have been discussing above.

Anyway -- would it be okay to use both of those structures in the same story (so you're not being consistent about how you break a single sentence of dialogue).

Normal disclaimers about example sentences apply.

AMB -- fish hooks -- the barbed kind.

 

[HareBrain]

I don't think consistency need be a worry; choose ellipses or dashes on a case-by case basis, because, as Cul said, they "sound" different: an ellipses "sounds" like a tailing off, a dash like a breaking off.

But in both your examples, to avoid the non-standardness we talked about before, the "she" should have a capital (different sentences, to bring back Ursa's point).

Though, thinking about it, I prefer them with a small "s". So I seem to have changed position completely during the course of this thread.

 

[Hex]

Excellent.

I wrote them with a 'S' first time. It looked strange, so I changed it.

Unfortunately, the examples I found in the thread were names (Cul) or 'I', which didn't help with capitalisation.

Anyway. That makes sense. I am unconfused again. Thank you.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I tend to use an elipsis for pauses, but think I use colons and semi-colons for other breaks. Either way, I would presume the issue is consistency - ie, the elipsis or dash, but not interchanging them.

 

[Hex]

That makes a lot of sense to me.

I've changed my mind about the capitals. Again.

 

[Culhwch]

Excellent.

I wrote them with a 'S' first time. It looked strange, so I changed it.

Unfortunately, the examples I found in the thread were names (Cul) or 'I', which didn't help with capitalisation.

Anyway. That makes sense. I am unconfused again. Thank you.

I would capitalise. So in my examples:

'This is a terrible example-' He snatched the sandwich from her grasp. '-but I'm gonna use it anyway!'

or

'This isn't that bad of an example...' He chewed on the sandwich thoughtfully. '...but it could be better.'

But to be honest, I don't do this very much at all. If I want to introduce a pause, I use commas around a dialogue tag:

'Well,' he said, 'that's fine for you, Culhwch, but some of us are a little more elegant.'

If I'm looking to throw in some action, I usually do it before or after the dialogue. Of course I'd have to look back over my stuff to see if this actually holds true, or if it's one of those things I'm oblivious to and do all the time.

 

[Hex]

Yes, I'm sorry -- your examples were capitalised and I was being dopey.

I don't do this often, I swear -- perhaps two or three times in 90,000 words -- but not knowing how to do it was irritating me.

I have this remaining example, which is a real one from the wip. Something like this?

"Certainly..." The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word: "Sir. How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"

or...?

"Certainly..." The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word "...Sir. How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"


I think that:

"Certainly," I said, "....Sir. How many..."

is neater, but it risks sounding insolent, which isn't what I want at all .

 

[The Judge]

No capital for "sir" unless it's at the start of a sentence or followed by a name (ie "Sir Woolston").

I wouldn't use the colon, but I'd have a full stop after "word", and I'd have the ellipsis before the "sir" to show the continuation. I'd be tempted to put one after it, too, to show a kind of still-not-sure-about-saying-it feel, or another pause with a tag or something (I can hear the person kind of gulping after saying it, which would give a short break). As written, it's a bit abrupt to my ear, and yes, threatens to sound insolent by snapping it off like that.

 

[Ursa major]

I think the main problems with your example, Hex, are that you're telling rather than showing, and have produced this odd construct that, to me, seems wrong:

...to say the word "...Sir. How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"

What follows the word, word, is lots of words, not just the one.




While I'll admit that the following is somewhat clumsy, it's shorter and it avoids the telling (and poor arithmetic ):

"Certainly, s... si..." The blood rose to my cheeks. "...sir. How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"

 

[HareBrain]

"Certainly..." The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word: "Sir. How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"

or...?

"Certainly..." The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word "...Sir. How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"

Definitely the first, in my opinion. The colon works well here, as it suggests the word she's struggling to say will immediately follow, which it does. Its abruptness also suggests a barrier, and therefore struggle, more than the second ellipsis, which to me just suggests a rather bland gap. But the second version is also valid, and colon-haters will prefer it.

 

[Hex]

Maybe the ellipses after 'sir' would deal with the lots of words issue?

"Certainly..." The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word. "...sir... How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"

EDITED after HareBrain's post:

How about:

"Certainly..." The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word: "sir... How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"


You know, I'm thinking the full stop after 'sir' makes it seem like she spat the word out, which is almost the effect I'd like.

 

[Ursa major]

If you want to retain the pause lengthening text, you should pull the word, sir, into the sentence of narration:

"Certainly..." The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word, sir. "How many glasses, sir? Where shall I bring it?"

 

[Culhwch]

How about a restructuring like:

'Certainly, sir.' The honorific all but caught in my throat, and I hoped the man didn't pick up on it. 'How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?'

...or similar, depending on whether the speaker did care, I guess. You do lose the pause, which I feel could be effective.

Of all the examples given so far, I'd favour TJ's. But then, I'm one of HB's colon-haters. They've no business in proper literature, I tells ya.

 

[Ursa major]

For some people, the pause would still be there: they'd either be wondering what the word, honorific, meant or, if they have access to a dictionary, looking it up.



(Sorry for using a colon.)

 

[Brian G Turner]

"Certainly..." The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word: "Sir. How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?"

I think the punctuation above is probably fine - my first reaction is that it was wrong and was going to suggest an edit example, but working through it, it seems fairly correct - but clumsy and hard to read.

I think the real problem with this isn't one of punctuation but of writing - you're creating sections of speech with jarring insertions of text that break it up awkwardly. It's not easy to read, and that's why you're stumbling over the punctuation.

I think really this is the sort of area where a simple rewrite would work better.

Do you even need that middle introspective sentence? If you've already provided a context as to why you would struggle to say 'sir', you need to to repeat it here.

I personally think a proceeding or preceding sentence showing the internalised conflict would work better, followed by the sentence.

Either way, I think what you need is:

"Certainly ... sir."

And then either have a sentence explaining your pause directly after if you must, or else flow straight into the following dialogue about the glasses. That would be easy to read, the grammar rules would be simple, and it wouldn't take from what you're trying to do.

 

[Hex]

Thank you all very much. I clearly have lots of thinking to do.

I think a lot of this comes down to style -- to me, though I'm a little scared to admit it, the sentence reads fine -- or, well, the choppiness is deliberate.

I think that may be because it fits with the general way in which I write so it wouldn't jar any more than any other sentence I've written. Since this comes close to the end of the wip, I doubt this specific sentence will be a problem since anyone who dislikes this kind of thing will have given up hundreds of pages earlier

I expect as I learn more, my style will evolve and I will learn to write differently. Currently, I don't 'hear' what's ugly about the example above but -- as I said -- I will take it away and think about it.

Thank you so much for all the comments.

 

[HareBrain]

I've just noticed something that might illuminate why there's a difference of opinion about the line in question. To me, how well it works depends on how fast it's read. If it's read aloud, or slowly, word by word, it does seem a bit clumsy. If the line between the dialogue sections is read quickly, so that you see where it's leading as soon as you start it, it works much more smoothly and more coherently.

I think I tend to skim-read these one-line inter-dialogue bits, just to get the gist of them, almost as one reads "he said" but doesn't really notice it. (If it contains complex information, I think I often have to read it again because I miss it first time.) So for me, the disconnect between the two bits of speech almost doesn't exist. But the effect might be different for someone who reads it in a different way.

 

[AMB]

For some people, the pause would still be there: they'd either be wondering what the word, honorific, meant or, if they have access to a dictionary, looking it up.



(Sorry for using a colon.)

I might have gone for appellation, but then the pause would have been the reader trying to figure out what a mountainous region in the US had to do with anything.

 

[Hex]

If the line between the dialogue sections is read quickly, so that you see where it's leading as soon as you start it, it works much more smoothly and more coherently.

I'd read it as something in parentheses, or even as a sort of aside to the reader:

Certainly... (The pause lengthened as I struggled to say the word) sir. How many glasses? Where shall I bring it?

 

[hopewrites]

ok correct me if i'm wrong but since you are telling us how she is not saying the word, isnt that a speach tag? because they tell us what the emotive quality we are missing by not actually hearing the dialog is.
She muttered bashfully. "That's how I understand them anyway."


also somewhere (that I didnt multiquote so I could have it pages later) there was an example where the tag went before the dialog, or I wanted it to, and I liked that because the example showed how the speech pattern was abnormal for the speaker. So if I'm used to someone having a decisive voice, and suddenly they are unsure of themselves I'm going to want to know that before I read the unsure dialog or I would have to trace back to 'hear' it correctly.