(More) dialogue punctuation questions

HareBrain said:
The fact that this is in a guide to punctuation, and that its writers apparently think this is normal, makes me despair. (Did I say that in the last example?)
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Yes. But say it again, as often as it needs said.

I seem to be collecting these examples to justify my own confusion. I just about have a grasp of what I can't do (well, sort of) but I want to understand what I should do (except use 'said').

I don't think I'm especially stupid (that is not a statement requiring a response, just in case anyone was tempted).
 
It's just another word for said but:

"You are the reason the world hate us," I told him firmly.
 
So would:

"You," I wagged my finger decidedly, "are the reason..." etc. be any better? (I know it's not pretty)
 
Well, here's how I would do the above.

"You --" I thrust a finger at him decidedly; "are the reason the world hates us."

The dash separates the dialogue from the action, but still allows it to flow in the same way. The semi-colon, again, separates the action from the following dialogue in the way a comma would not, but because it isn't a full stop, it brings the two dialogue sections into one sentence. I guess you could use another dash instead of the semi-colon.

"You --" I thrust a finger at him decidedly -- "are the reason the world hates us."

This has the same effect as putting it in parentheses, best observed without quote marks:

You (I thrust a finger at him decidedly) are the reason the world hates us.



Edit @ Hex's previous post: No, it's the same: you're still trying to wag the word You. Take out the quote marks, as you might if it were a thought -- if the dialogue punctuation is correct, it should still make sense.
 
I'd say no because it looks like the waggling finger has nothing to go with the 'you.' I don't know the technical terms so I can't explain it in the way HB and TJ and others do.

I know you don't want to use said but you do know there's nothing wrong with it, right? Your writing's good, Hex. I think you're confusing yourself unnecessarily. I know, I do this to myself a lot!

edit: I type too slowly and HB's explained what I meant better than I did.
 
For me that sentence is too short for such a large insertion. Plus, placing it immediately after the initial word breaks the sentence up too early, making it stumble. If it was after the word reason, it might look better.

However, I'm with HB (I think this was part of his point) in that pointing or waggling decidedly is impossible. I always thought decidedly was verbal or at least a grand gesture, not hand movement size(I hope that makes sense).

Edit: Thrusting decidedly does work. It's a vigorous gesture.
 
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springs1971 said:
But, why not add the descriptor? You don't have to use said.
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I want to know if there's an alternative to using 'he said' (and all the other ones). If there isn't, I'll go back through everything I've written and add dialogue tags -- but if there's the possibility of doing it differently, I'd like to know what it is.

Plus, all this stuff is new to me (including all the things HB just said about punctuation) and I want to learn it so I can use it.

(Thanks very much, HareBrain, for the example, and the explanation.)

EDIT: I type too slowly! Thank you for the nice comments :)

If it makes any sense at all -- sentences get broken all the time when I'm thinking/ writing -- and sometimes I've used 'said' a lot already, and sometimes it feels like it'd slow things down where I want them to be fast.

I wanted to know if this was one of those immovable things I'd just have to live with (like I must teach myself to abandon the comma splice) or if there was a way to write it that wouldn't cause my name to be cursed by nine generations of purists.
 
I don't know, actually. Decidedly, decisively, I can see that when someone's pointing. Isn't it great we're all so different, imagine how boring it'd be otherwise. And doesn't it show why we shouldn't have handouts saying this is how to write or punctuate. Rules, yes. Strictures, no.
 
Abernovo said:
However, I'm with HB (I think this was part of his point) in that pointing or waggling decidedly is impossible.
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Actually, Abernovo, it wasn't, though that might be a consideration. My point is only that by using a comma, the sentence suggests that it's the word "You" that is being "wagged". Take out the quote marks:

You, I wagged a finger decidedly, blah blah.

Yes, we understand what it means, so it does make sense. But by using a comma at the end of "You," the reader expects what follows to be a dialogue tag, NOT a separate action (and it is a separate action, even if it's being done by the speaker at the same time as he's speaking).

As I've said before, at least one well-regarded author has done this. But it IS technically wrong (or at least non-standard), and if you send stuff to an agent where this is done a lot, he might choose to believe you don't know what you're doing, rather than that you're a daring pusher of punctuational boundaries.
 
Hex said:
I want to know if there's an alternative to using 'he said' (and all the other ones). If there isn't, I'll go back through everything I've written and add dialogue tags -- but if there's the possibility of doing it differently, I'd like to know what it is.

QUOTE]

Why? It's your style, it works. If you asked me to remove all mine, I'd cry; why should you add them? Style's good. I think I just double posted. On punctuation. Like I know anything. Will run away and watch for a while instead. :eek:
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Personally, I'd cheat.

"You!" I thrust a finger at him decidedly. "You are the reason the world hates us."

Which sections the "you" from the fingering, and the second you then makes the sentencey bit of speech work, with a bonus of getting the point across to the subject. It would either be that or just have the thrusting first:

I thrust a finger at him decidedly. "You are the reason the world hates us."

Is the speaker waving their finger before. during, or after they say "you"? Difficult to tell. The emphasis isn't clear.

Now if you'd gone with the following:

"You," I said, thrusting a finger at him decidedly, "are the reason the world hates us."

It would give us everything and be nice prettiful. But it uses the tag.

But I'm not exactly an expert on punctuation myself. There is so much I thought I knew that it turns out I don't.


Another slow typer. Or rather slow thinker.
 
Hex said:
If it makes any sense at all -- sentences get broken all the time when I'm thinking/ writing -- and sometimes I've used 'said' a lot already, and sometimes it feels like it'd slow things down where I want them to be fast.

I wanted to know if this was one of those immovable things I'd just have to live with (like I must teach myself to abandon the comma splice) or if there was a way to write it that wouldn't cause my name to be cursed by nine generations of purists.
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That makes perfect sense, and there are times when the dash-thing might not feel right. If I came across the example you initially gave, I would probably notice it but not mind much, because the action is related to the dialogue -- it's only a step removed from being a "proper" dialogue tag. But the following example:

"You," she filled in clue twenty-four across in the Times crossword, "need to stop watching me do the crossword"

follows the same format but (I think) is (even) more contentious.

So I wouldn't say never use it. And maybe it will become "standard" in time -- it certainly has advantages.
 
I'd go further than HB in post#39 and state that the use of commas seems downright wrong. As has been discussed before, there are two sentences here:
1) "You are the reason the world hates us."

2) I thrust a finger at him decidedly.
​
As with any two sentences, they surely cannot be separated by a mere comma (or, as in this case, two commas). That's why the dashes are used: to show how the two sentences are interleaved.

(By the way, I'm not keen on the narrative sentence ending in a semicolon; I much prefer a dash at each end. And the decidedly doesn't sound right at all, for that matter.)
 
My apologies HB.

Hex, as Springs says, your writing is strong. As to varying words (e.g. finding another word for said), I heard a curious fact a while back. One of the most popular and profitable writers in the English language is Agatha Christie, although I have to say her books leave me cold. Supposedly, she used a very small pool of words, especially verbs, keeping her books simple. Examples were: he said, she went, he looked.

So, vary, but not too much? I'm not sure how relevant that is.
 
I understand! Two sentences! I understand it!!

Thank you. I just felt my brain expand -- I love that feeling.

It kind of highlights for me how much else I don't understand, but I shall deal with that tomorrow (or the next day, maybe).

AMB -- I cheat too! Just, I was doing it to avoid the problem I didn't understand and now I think I've got it (the rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain...)

Abernovo -- I like Agatha Christie but I don't remember how she writes (as in, I think it's so straightforward I don't notice). I love Dorothy L. Sayers (since we're talking about female authors of detective stories) and I think -- although I'll need to check -- that she varies a lot more.

I'm not sure that was relevant either. Oh well :)
 
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