Who's your favourite non-POV character?

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Though physically agonizing, socially shameful, psychologically scarring, and potentially career ending, the loss of his right hand has forced Jaime to grow up. Without his hand, he's more of a whole person.

I really like that analogy. He certainly has become a better person since losing his hand, so maybe the loss of his hand isn't exactly the punichment he deserves, but losing his hand has allowed him to redeem himself, not that he has completly been redeemed, but he is on his way. all he needs to do now is strangle Cersei. Then he will be redeemed, at least in my eyes.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Robert pardoned Jaime for murdering Aerys II. Brienne knows the circumstances behind Aerys' death. And like Brienne, we respect Jaime's decision and feel sympathetic towards him. His quick thinking and decisive action mark Aerys' death as one of the most heroic moments of the ages. And yet, if Dany gets her hands upon Jaime, he's done.. along with anyone who approved of his royal pardon, i.e. Pycelle and Varys.

Jaime's loss of his hand has been frustrating for him, to say the least. Maiming him was cruel. But compare Jaime at the end of AFFC to Jaime up until he met Hoat.

In ACOK, Jaime confessed to Catelyn that he loved Cersei... that he'd only ever been with her... that her children were his... that he'd have murdered Robert without a second thought... and that he defenestrated Bran to conceal all of this. He rarely stopped to think because he could always rely upon his sword and his father's power to bail him out of all situations.

By the end of ADWD, Jaime had lost his hand and his father. He had to think and plan for himself. He negotiated the surrender of Riverrun, kept his oaths to Catelyn, arranged protection for Sansa, sorted out Harrenhal, ended the Blackwood-Bracken feud, ordered the Freys to hand over their hostages, and presumably ended his relationship with Cersei.

With his hand, he was a prisoner in Riverrun. Without his hand, he is the conqueror of Riverrun.

Though physically agonizing, socially shameful, psychologically scarring, and potentially career ending, the loss of his right hand has forced Jaime to grow up. Without his hand, he's more of a whole person.

He's taken on more responsibility at work. He's become more accountable in his love life. He's striven to keep his oaths.

Chopping off his hand was meant to inhibit Jaime, but it has really spurred along his mental maturity.

Granted, he has not changed over night. He recently threatened to kill an unborn baby. And he's still supporting an illegal regime founded upon his own lies and treachery. But he now has a glimmer of hope for redemption... and that is only because Zollo, a fat Dothraki, chopped off his sword hand.

So, so, so much agree.

I really like that analogy. He certainly has become a better person since losing his hand, so maybe the loss of his hand isn't exactly the punichment he deserves, but losing his hand has allowed him to redeem himself, not that he has completly been redeemed, but he is on his way. all he needs to do now is strangle Cersei. Then he will be redeemed, at least in my eyes.

I don't really need him to strangle Cersei because he already broke off with her. I'd rather valonqar stays the obvious choice, Tyrion because of the self-fulfilling prophecy aspect of the whole thing.

 

[Deɑth.]

Robert pardoned Jaime for murdering Aerys II. Brienne knows the circumstances behind Aerys' death. And like Brienne, we respect Jaime's decision and feel sympathetic towards him. His quick thinking and decisive action mark Aerys' death as one of the most heroic moments of the ages. And yet, if Dany gets her hands upon Jaime, he's done.. along with anyone who approved of his royal pardon, i.e. Pycelle and Varys.

Jaime's loss of his hand has been frustrating for him, to say the least. Maiming him was cruel. But compare Jaime at the end of AFFC to Jaime up until he met Hoat.

In ACOK, Jaime confessed to Catelyn that he loved Cersei... that he'd only ever been with her... that her children were his... that he'd have murdered Robert without a second thought... and that he defenestrated Bran to conceal all of this. He rarely stopped to think because he could always rely upon his sword and his father's power to bail him out of all situations.

By the end of ADWD, Jaime had lost his hand and his father. He had to think and plan for himself. He negotiated the surrender of Riverrun, kept his oaths to Catelyn, arranged protection for Sansa, sorted out Harrenhal, ended the Blackwood-Bracken feud, ordered the Freys to hand over their hostages, and presumably ended his relationship with Cersei.

With his hand, he was a prisoner in Riverrun. Without his hand, he is the conqueror of Riverrun.

Though physically agonizing, socially shameful, psychologically scarring, and potentially career ending, the loss of his right hand has forced Jaime to grow up. Without his hand, he's more of a whole person.

He's taken on more responsibility at work. He's become more accountable in his love life. He's striven to keep his oaths.

Chopping off his hand was meant to inhibit Jaime, but it has really spurred along his mental maturity.

Granted, he has not changed over night. He recently threatened to kill an unborn baby. And he's still supporting an illegal regime founded upon his own lies and treachery. But he now has a glimmer of hope for redemption... and that is only because Zollo, a fat Dothraki, chopped off his sword hand.

None of this matters at the eyes of Westeros. He's a kingslayer with "sh*t for honour".

The prior moments before Brianne is "hanged" proof that much since none of them actually cared about her intentions nor Jaime's, they just thought of her as the "Kingslayer's whore". Sure, you could say he's been grown as a person. Someone that has been pushed out in a very brusque way from their bubble of comfort to the point we can actually respect him. However, that won't make up for his crimes at the eyes of Westeros and, realistically speaking, the fact he tried to murder a child like that would just earn a death sentence.

As much as we love him, he can't escape his punishment and will never do. The fact he somehow ended up back into Catelyn's claws is the only proof I need of that.

 

[Boaz]

"As we sin, so do we suffer," is a mantra of the High Septons of the Faith. We know this is false. Drogo, a butcher and slaver did not suffer too much. Aerys II, a murderous rapist died quickly. Walder Frey, oathbreaker and murderer, has dozens of heirs and a teenage bed warmer. Bran, an athletic and fun loving seven year old boy, is now a paraplegic. Sam, a sweet soul, was threatened with death, taken from his family, and forced to go to the Wall. Gilly, a product of incest, was forced into marrying her father/grandfather and having his child.

Jaime's actions mark him as one of the foulest villains in the story. I'm not saying that we respect who he was. There is no way he can undo his evil deeds. But can we resonate with his desire (it's not quite a wholehearted attempt) to change his ways? Do we see our own longings for being admirable despite our failures?

I'm not sure Jaime's reasons for desiring change are good reasons. He's worried about his legacy in the White Book and he'd like to throw some good deeds in the faces of all those who mock him as Kingslayer. Image and revenge are not the best motives for helping people. I can easily see him losing sight of what's good in order to craft an image or get his revenge. I'd like to see him try and help the exact people he's hurt... to make amends as far as is possible. Right now, he's doing good in other ways, but he's not really getting to the heart of the matter.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

"As we sin, so do we suffer," is a mantra of the High Septons of the Faith. We know this is false. Drogo, a butcher and slaver did not suffer too much. Aerys II, a murderous rapist died quickly. Walder Frey, oathbreaker and murderer, has dozens of heirs and a teenage bed warmer. Bran, an athletic and fun loving seven year old boy, is now a paraplegic. Sam, a sweet soul, was threatened with death, taken from his family, and forced to go to the Wall. Gilly, a product of incest, was forced into marrying her father/grandfather and having his child.

Jaime's actions mark him as one of the foulest villains in the story. I'm not saying that we respect who he was. There is no way he can undo his evil deeds. But can we resonate with his desire (it's not quite a wholehearted attempt) to change his ways? Do we see our own longings for being admirable despite our failures?

I'm not sure Jaime's reasons for desiring change are good reasons. He's worried about his legacy in the White Book and he'd like to throw some good deeds in the faces of all those who mock him as Kingslayer. Image and revenge are not the best motives for helping people. I can easily see him losing sight of what's good in order to craft an image or get his revenge. I'd like to see him try and help the exact people he's hurt... to make amends as far as is possible. Right now, he's doing good in other ways, but he's not really getting to the heart of the matter.

He did try with the oaths he gave to Catelyn and it is a start. He is trying and it isn't really so much a legacy as feeling that he is falling short of people around him. White Book made him think about what he is leaving as his legacy, but if he didn't care about becoming a better person, he wouldn't really care about it. He isn't jealous about the legacy Selmy or Dayne left so that he feels the need to compete or compensate. He is disturbed by the fact that his life up until that point didn't hold much meaning and that he is shaming his predecessors by falling short of a standard they had set. He is feeling guilty and admits that his life wasn't very fulfilling. The fact that he admits all that is a first step in the right direction and he is trying to do right by people now.

As for the other people, I think he wants to mock them because they mock him for essentially saving them. Was killing Aerys wrong from the honour point of view? It definitely was considering he was bound by the oath. Was scarifying his honour and breaking the oath to save people of KL so morally black as people of Westeros think it? I don't think so.

And in the end, the motivator for becoming better isn't all that important. At the end of the day, it is important to strive to be better.

P.S. @thread It is really funny that my favourite characters are the ones who don't have a POV like Varys, Jaqen, and Oberyn.

 

[Boaz]

Regarding Jaime...

I think Jaime's greatest moment was breaking the psychological shackles of the Kingsguard vows and killing Aerys II. It was the best thing he ever did... and it was absolutely the right thing to do. It's just that no one else knows what Aerys was planning... so they revile Jaime.

It is really funny that my favourite characters are the ones who don't have a POV like Varys, Jaqen, and Oberyn.

Sry, sometimes I think about the saying, "Less is more." When I was young I thought of both of these measurements in terms of quantity... but really it is meant to be, "Less quantity is more quality."

When I was younger, I was married for fouteen minutes months to a economics teacher. She'd teach her students the Law of Diminishing Returns using cookies. She'd get the loudest (and often largest) boy in class to volunteer to eat as many cookies as she gave him. The boy, knowing that his mother never would ever let him eat more than four at a sitting, would eagerly agree. In front of the class he'd eat one cookie at a time and rate his enjoyment on a scale of one to ten. First cookie... Ten! He'd smirk at his classmates knowing he was getting over on them. Second cookie... Ten! Third... Ten! Fourth... Ten! Fifth... Ten! Sixth... Nine. When asked why he rated the sixth cookie lower when it was exactly the same, he'd say, "Well, I've already got the flavor and it just seems a bit redundant." Seventh... Nine. Eighth... Eight. Ninth... Eight. Tenth... Six. When asked about the two point drop, he'd say, "I'm getting full. Can I stop now?" No... he agreed to eat all the cookies that she gave him.... so he had to keep on eating. And now the class would be laughing at him. Around the fifteenth cookie, the boy would rate it a one... and the lesson was done.

Enigmas keep the tension in a character's life. Knowing all the details spoils the magic. Do we really need to know who Shae was? You can imagine she was who she said she was. HBO can imagine her as a foreigner. I can imagine her as Varys' double agent pretending to work for Tywin pretending to work for Tyrion.

Sry, you love Varys, Jaqen, and Oberyn. I love Jorah, and the Old Bear... and Dacey. Mmmmmm, Dacey....

Sorry.

Martin has a lot of mysteries in this story. I hope he does not wrap all of them up for us. I mean, I do hope I know who Jon's parents are... and if Aerys raped Joanna... repeatedly. But other than that... I hope he leaves us some conundrums, quandaries (I don't get to use that word enough), mysteries, and enigmas.

 

[Groot]

I just hope George RR Martin includes your cookie story at some point!

Maybe with Hot Pie?

 

[Boaz]

Groot, that made me laugh out loud! Hot Pie.... funny. I have tears coming out the corners of my eyes. I think I'll be teaching this lesson to my nieces and nephews... with Hot Pockets.