Who's your favourite non-POV character?

[Boaz]

Tom Badgerlock, thank you for your thoughts. I'd like to share a few more of my opinions. I do not possess all truth. I know you're new here and I do not mean to frighten you away. So please, do not take any of my comments as a personal attack... these are meant just for discussion regarding characters, their actions, and how we evaluate them. Thanks.

There are characters, in ASOIAF, who would not commit murder to attain power and wealth nor to cover up their crimes. Barristan, Sansa, Catelyn, Sam, Aemon, Jon, Robb, Brienne (so far), and Eddard have neither murdered, nor conspired to murder, anyone. They have not sought to use death as a means for personal gain.

I do not understand what utility has to do with three men holding a woman hostage. The woman's brother, her rightful guardian and protector, showed up and asked/demanded her to be turned over to him. Is it better for the woman to be left as a hostage than to overpower her captors and set her free? It is not utility... it is right and wrong.

We don't know the entire story yet, although I suspect that Hightower and/or Dayne knew the truth of why they were there... why Lyanna was there. They could claim that Eddard was a traitor and thus not deserving of Lyanna. While Eddard could claim the Targaryens were finished and the Kingsguard owed no more allegiance to the dragons. Either way, I have a hard time finding more honor in carrying out Rhaegar's wishes than denying Lyanna a reunion with her brother.

I also do not agree that Eddard cut off Gared's head as a deterrent. Eddard cut off Gared's head to fulfill the law... to do the justice appointed to him and expected of him. The law that declares capital pushiment is the deterrent. Eddard did not do this to gain power.

Regarding Jaime defenestrating Bran... I do not see that as utilitarian. I see it as attempted murder. It was not Bran's fault that the war would have started... it would have been Jaime's and Cersei's fault for incest, adultery, and high treason. (Having said that, Bran did choose to continue his eavesdropping knowing full well that he was hearing dangerous talk. It was horrible, but Bran put himself into the path of a murderer. Stranger, danger.)

If we do not judge a person (or character) by their actions, how will we then judge him? Only the Almighty can see into our hearts and see our motivations, our fears, our hopes, and our deep desires. We, in this world, and GRRM's characters in Westeros, continually judge by actions. Do we judge James Holmes, the culprit of the Aurora, Colorado shooting during The Dark Knight Rises by his actions or by his desires? Supposedly he was trying to find relief from his mental anguish... that sounds good, but he did so by shooting seventy people, killing twelve.

Hitler just wanted a unified and ethnically homogenous nation. That's not so bad, right? What if we just judged him upon his motivations?

Jaime's actions include incest, adultery, murder, high treason, attempted murder, lying, conspiracy to murder, attacking public officials...

I'll not even mention regicide because the king was planning to murder tens of thousands of civilians. That was evil. Jaime was absolutely just in stopping Aerys. The fact that it happens to be one life in exchange of thousands is coincidental.

Jaime excercised great judgement when he killed Aerys II. The three kingsguard opposing Eddard should have done the same.

I disagree that Eddard should have shown common sense and submitted his body to Aerys II for execution. If the King was willing to murder the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, one of the highest lords of the realm... and willing to murder the lord's named heir and apparently all of his progeny, then what justice could anyone else ever expect? As Jaime defied Aerys' madness, so did Eddard. Rhaegar, the kingsguard, Houses Tyrell, Martell, Darry, and the others should have shown the same sense.

If you're alone at home and three men burst in to kill you and your wife, you don't reason, "Well, since there are three of them against the two of us, it would make utilitarian sense that less people die... and that should be my wife and me."... No, you defend your wife and yourself to your utmost.

Tom, let me reiterate that Jaime is my favorite character. I truly hope he finds regret, not just for wasting his life, but for the crimes he's committed. I want him not just to change his ways, but to repent.

That's how I see things. I don't mean to, but sometimes I do come across as a know it all. Please give further arguments, if you'd like.

Finally, I whole heartedly agree that Dolorous Edd is an outstanding non-POV character. One of the best. I'm glad GRRM did not give him more lines or give us more on his background. Less is more in this case.

Also, (yeah, I know I began the last paragraph with finally) Stannis is the favorite non-POV of two of my friends here in Denver. Many non-POV characters can be shrugged off... Mace Tyrell, Bronn, the Mountain, Pycelle, Osha, Aemon... but Stannis cannot be ignored. His claims of righteousness, his zeal for justice, and his descent into witchcraft are all spellbinding... literally.

 

[The Imp]

Boaz, as always, I am in awe. You really are the best.

 

[Boaz]

Imp, thanks. If I come across as self-righteous, I apologize. I know we all make mistakes. We've all done things we wish we could undo. I've cheated in school. I've lied... to my parents, to my boss, to my friends. I've bullied younger kids. I've stolen. I've been spiteful, deceptive, and hateful to loved ones. I've asked others to lie in order to cover my tracks. I've taken illegal drugs. I've driven my car while drunk. By those actions, I'm a bad guy.

But I don't do drugs or drink and drive anymore. I strive to be honest and kind... but it's always tempting to streeeeetch the truth. I do not steal. Hopefully, I don't bully anyone... especially online, it's so tempting when I am anonymous.

Maybe I've changed because I've just gotten old enough to gain some perspective and sympathy for others. Maybe I've finally understood some basic truths... lying, stealing, and cheating are bad. Either way, I want to be sorry for the wrongs I do.

That's why I love Jaime Lannister so much. He's at a crossroads in his life. He wants to change. Right now, his desire to change is based solely upon the fact that he knows his legacy will be that of the villain. He still wants to be the hero of the story, but he's not really sorry for his evil deeds... yet. Mayhaps he never will be.

And I'd like to throw in one more name for a favorite non-POV character.... Janos Slynt. Slynt has a peculiar way of talking. (Oh, yes, he does. Do not doubt it.) But Slynt is also such a great name for such a slimy and treacherous character. (Slimy. That's the exact word. Exactly. Oh, yes.) The name Janos conjures up images of the two headed Roman god, Janus.... and Slynt is two faced! I'm so glad he finally got his.

 

[The Imp]

Imp, thanks. If I come across as self-righteous, I apologize. I know we all make mistakes. We've all done things we wish we could undo. I've cheated in school. I've lied... to my parents, to my boss, to my friends. I've bullied younger kids. I've stolen. I've been spiteful, deceptive, and hateful to loved ones. I've asked others to lie in order to cover my tracks. I've taken illegal drugs. I've driven my car while drunk. By those actions, I'm a bad guy.

But I don't do drugs or drink and drive anymore. I strive to be honest and kind... but it's always tempting to streeeeetch the truth. I do not steal. Hopefully, I don't bully anyone... especially online, it's so tempting when I am anonymous.

Maybe I've changed because I've just gotten old enough to gain some perspective and sympathy for others. Maybe I've finally understood some basic truths... lying, stealing, and cheating are bad. Either way, I want to be sorry for the wrongs I do.

That's why I love Jaime Lannister so much. He's at a crossroads in his life. He wants to change. Right now, his desire to change is based solely upon the fact that he knows his legacy will be that of the villain. He still wants to be the hero of the story, but he's not really sorry for his evil deeds... yet. Mayhaps he never will be.

And I'd like to throw in one more name for a favorite non-POV character.... Janos Slynt. Slynt has a peculiar way of talking. (Oh, yes, he does. Do not doubt it.) But Slynt is also such a great name for such a slimy and treacherous character. (Slimy. That's the exact word. Exactly. Oh, yes.) The name Janos conjures up images of the two headed Roman god, Janus.... and Slynt is two faced! I'm so glad he finally got his.

In my opinion you never come off as being self-righteous, sanctimonious, holier than anyone, etc. Your posts are proof that someone can have strong opinions while simultaneously not trying to force them down anyone's throat. You are one of the people that help make this my favorite board on the entire internet. Posting here makes ME a better person, as most of the time i am able to resist the urge to verbally bludgeon someone. Since posting here and on another (unrelated) board i've virutally stopped posting anywhere that flaming happens. I read some boards for informational purposes, but I'm mostly non-participatory.

By the way Boaz, you're journey is a little reminiscent of bit of Jack Sawyer's. that's a very good thing IMO.

 

[Boaz]

Thanks again, friend. I raise my glass of whiskey to you. L'chaim!

Soooo... Jack Sawyer from The Talisman? I never read it, but I might if you recommend it.





Or... Jack and Sawyer from LOST? Other than the ending, I loved both of their journeys... I did not always agree with their decisions and sometimes their behavior was hard to watch, but their journeys were worth following. And even more off topic, if Matthew Fox and Josh Holloway could pull off convincing English accents, then I'd have liked to have seen them as Eddard and Jaime.

Edit: Plus, I think Dominic Monaghan could do a really good Littlefinger... a favorite non-POV character.

 

[The Imp]

Thanks again, friend. I raise my glass of whiskey to you. L'chaim!

Soooo... Jack Sawyer from The Talisman? I never read it, but I might if you recommend it.





Or... Jack and Sawyer from LOST? Other than the ending, I loved both of their journeys... I did not always agree with their decisions and sometimes their behavior was hard to watch, but their journeys were worth following. And even more off topic, if Matthew Fox and Josh Holloway could pull off convincing English accents, then I'd have liked to have seen them as Eddard and Jaime.

Edit: Plus, I think Dominic Monaghan could do a really good Littlefinger... a favorite non-POV character.

What an interesting slip Jack Sawyer was on my mind I guess as i just re-read black House. The character I was actually thinking of was Jack Shepard, but Jack AND Sawyer might even make more sense, given what you wrote?

Josh would have been a great Jaimie IMO. Matthew I'd have to think about, although he showed amazing acting skills and physical discipline in the recent movie Alex Cross. I used to picture someone who looked like Sean Bean before GoT aired.

 

[LilyDraken]

Olenna Tyrell.

"Oh, here comes my cheese!"

Though Varys and Bronn would be a close second and third respectively.

 

[Yavannie]

Varys and Littlefinger are two of mine. You just know they'll never be PoVs because that'd be giving too much away. Sandor Clegane is another obvious one. Vargo Hoat is a right hoot.

Ramsay and Roose Bolton - not favourites as in I like them, but for being so creepy they make my skin crawl.

 

[Boaz]

Has the HBO show changed your opinion on the matter? Joffrey? Stannis? Tywin? Olenna? Sandor?

Don't forget Tecumseh Sherman.

I was rereading this thread... How did I not make a comment regarding this? Tywin's march through the Riverlands was unforgettable to say the least.

And a comment to Imp...

Last fall I went back to my home state and stayed with my best friend from school. We were in the same class from eighth grade through eleventh. But his father decided his grades were not good enough to get into the Ivy League, so he transferred to Deerfield Academy... one of the top prep schools in the country... and redid his junior year. He stayed for a senior year and a new student transferred in that year... Matthew Fox. I saw the yearbook and the basketball team photo of them together. He did not tell me back in the eighties... because Matthew Fox was not star then.

I don't mind name dropping at all. I hate one-upmanship, but I will name drop all day long.

 

[Tywin]

Has the HBO show changed your opinion on the matter? Joffrey? Stannis? Tywin? Olenna? Sandor?

I was rereading this thread... How did I not make a comment regarding this? Tywin's march through the Riverlands was unforgettable to say the least.

Boaz, ye reviver of old threads, what is thine home state?

 

[juleska]

Boaz, this isn't so much a comment on a favorite character, but the tagline under your User Name reminds me how sad I am that the show replaced Vargo Hoat with Locke. What a useless character. What was the point of that guy? Served nothing to the story and the Goat would've been more interesting to show us.

 

[Boaz]

I don't know why HBO decided to give us Locke instead of Hoat. I guess they could double up to send him to the Wall...

I just hope the decision was not because the lisp would offend some people. Come to think of it, Podrick Payne does not stutter on the show... After witnessing a demon birth, murder, molten gold, murder, child marriage, murder, adultery, murder, torture, murder, defenestration of a child, murder, rape, incest, murder, more incest, midget bashing, murder, gelding, murder, lying, murder, treason, murder, arson, murder, and all the graphic sex... boy, I'd hate to see someone offended by a speech disorder.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I think they gave us Locke instead of Hoat because Hoat would have taken up more screen time. They didn't do much in the introduction of Locke, he was just some lackey in the service of... Roose Bolton? Maybe? he was basically just there to cut Jaime's hand off and get murdered by Brandor. With Hoat there would have to be more back story to show just how crazy he really was, or they would have to make him just a bland character, which, in essence, they did.

But does anyone know how Locke ended up at the wall? I don't remember that happening and when he showed up I kept thinking... That guy looks familiar...

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I think they gave us Locke instead of Hoat because Hoat would have taken up more screen time. They didn't do much in the introduction of Locke, he was just some lackey in the service of... Roose Bolton? Maybe? he was basically just there to cut Jaime's hand off and get murdered by Brandor. With Hoat there would have to be more back story to show just how crazy he really was, or they would have to make him just a bland character, which, in essence, they did.

But does anyone know how Locke ended up at the wall? I don't remember that happening and when he showed up I kept thinking... That guy looks familiar...

Boltons sent him there because Theon, upon being asked, suggested that Bran and Rickon might have gone there to seek protection from Jon Snow.

 

[Boaz]

Brandor? That's a new one! I like it.

 

[Deɑth.]

Definitely Tywin, and the guy who always says "Har!" I find Missandei also quite interesting, she is far to politically-savy for such a little girl.

Isn't he Tormund?

Anyway, two of my most favourite characters are non-POV, heh. Tywin and Stannis. Edd from the NW is pretty hilarious as well.

Edit: Regarding the Jaime argument. What he did was horrible, no one can deny that. He tried to murder an innocent child that had no intention of seeing what he saw, but as bad as he was, he's trying to redeem himself and he's aware that all of his crimes and sins will make him company for the rest of his life. That is, for me, a redeeming quality. However, in modern day society, I'd be willing to agree that Jaime would need to get punished for his crimes.

He already paid everything he did with his hand, though.

 

[Boaz]

. He already paid everything he did with his hand, though.

I disagree.

Zollo maimed Jaime on Hoat's orders. Hoat did not claim to judge Jaime as Beric did with Sandor or as Stannis did with Davos or as Eddard did with Gared or as Robb did with Karstark. You could could call it karma. You could say, "What comes around, goes around." But not once did Hoat list Jaime's crimes nor call it punishment.

Losing a hand hand is a brutal and terrible thing, but does it make up for paralyzingly a young boy? Does it make up for murdering Jory? The usual punishment for oath breaking and high treason is death... this literally is a slap on the wrist.

Regicide.
High treason. (Adultery with the Queen. Fathering three children on her.)
Murder. (Rossart.)
Conspiracy to murder. (Jory.)
Attempted murder. (Eddard. Bran.)
Treason. (Freed Tyrion.)

Who can judge him? Dany, Stannis, Tommen, Sansa, Bran, and Brynden are among those with the best claim of justice upon him... yet none of them can (or would want to) punish him for all of his crimes.

Even in his maimed state, Dany and Stannis would gladly execute him and call it justice. Neither of them would view his stump as payment.

Now... all that being said, Jaime is still my favorite character. I hope he does find redemption in his own eyes because he'll never find it in the eyes of his accusers.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I disagree.

Zollo maimed Jaime on Hoat's orders. Hoat did not claim to judge Jaime as Beric did with Sandor or as Stannis did with Davos or as Eddard did with Gared or as Robb did with Karstark. You could could call it karma. You could say, "What comes around, goes around." But not once did Hoat list Jaime's crimes nor call it punishment.

Losing a hand hand is a brutal and terrible thing, but does it make up for paralyzingly a young boy? Does it make up for murdering Jory? The usual punishment for oath breaking and high treason is death... this literally is a slap on the wrist.

Regicide.
High treason. (Adultery with the Queen. Fathering three children on her.)
Murder. (Rossart.)
Conspiracy to murder. (Jory.)
Attempted murder. (Eddard. Bran.)
Treason. (Freed Tyrion.)

Who can judge him? Dany, Stannis, Tommen, Sansa, Bran, and Brynden are among those with the best claim of justice upon him... yet none of them can (or would want to) punish him for all of his crimes.

Even in his maimed state, Dany and Stannis would gladly execute him and call it justice. Neither of them would view his stump as payment.

Now... all that being said, Jaime is still my favorite character. I hope he does find redemption in his own eyes because he'll never find it in the eyes of his accusers.

Well, to be technical, he was given a royal pardon by the King for the Regicide of Aerys and the murder of Rossart, so he can't/shouldn't be punished for those crimes, especially in light of the reason he did it and that he saved the lives of so many of the citizens of Kings Landing. Jaime is one of my favourite characters also, and I do hope he finds redemption, which he will when he strangles Cersei.

 

[Deɑth.]

I disagree.

Zollo maimed Jaime on Hoat's orders. Hoat did not claim to judge Jaime as Beric did with Sandor or as Stannis did with Davos or as Eddard did with Gared or as Robb did with Karstark. You could could call it karma. You could say, "What comes around, goes around." But not once did Hoat list Jaime's crimes nor call it punishment.

Losing a hand hand is a brutal and terrible thing, but does it make up for paralyzingly a young boy? Does it make up for murdering Jory? The usual punishment for oath breaking and high treason is death... this literally is a slap on the wrist.

Regicide.
High treason. (Adultery with the Queen. Fathering three children on her.)
Murder. (Rossart.)
Conspiracy to murder. (Jory.)
Attempted murder. (Eddard. Bran.)
Treason. (Freed Tyrion.)

Who can judge him? Dany, Stannis, Tommen, Sansa, Bran, and Brynden are among those with the best claim of justice upon him... yet none of them can (or would want to) punish him for all of his crimes.

Even in his maimed state, Dany and Stannis would gladly execute him and call it justice. Neither of them would view his stump as payment.

Now... all that being said, Jaime is still my favorite character. I hope he does find redemption in his own eyes because he'll never find it in the eyes of his accusers.

He's nothing without his hands, that much has been shown in the books. Sure, you could agree he'd end up being a decent leader of Casterly Rock, but he refused to take such position and we all know Jaime was left as one of the few Lannisters that would recieve the fury of whoever takes the Throne at the end of the series (because it's blantantly obvious to anyone that the Lannisters' hold of the throne would dissipate and they will lose much of their political influence).

By losing his hand, Jaime loses who he is. His entire character development in ASoS pretty much proves that. Though, I will agree it doesn't make up for everything he has done.

However, I'd like to point out that you mentioned "Regicide". I can't blame Jaime that much for what he did. He was young and reckless, but he still has a heart and he wouldn't let a madman start burning his own city just for the sake of keeping his honour "clean". Even Barristan himself admitted he had troubles keeping his own vows.

 

[Boaz]

Robert pardoned Jaime for murdering Aerys II. Brienne knows the circumstances behind Aerys' death. And like Brienne, we respect Jaime's decision and feel sympathetic towards him. His quick thinking and decisive action mark Aerys' death as one of the most heroic moments of the ages. And yet, if Dany gets her hands upon Jaime, he's done.. along with anyone who approved of his royal pardon, i.e. Pycelle and Varys.

Jaime's loss of his hand has been frustrating for him, to say the least. Maiming him was cruel. But compare Jaime at the end of AFFC to Jaime up until he met Hoat.

In ACOK, Jaime confessed to Catelyn that he loved Cersei... that he'd only ever been with her... that her children were his... that he'd have murdered Robert without a second thought... and that he defenestrated Bran to conceal all of this. He rarely stopped to think because he could always rely upon his sword and his father's power to bail him out of all situations.

By the end of ADWD, Jaime had lost his hand and his father. He had to think and plan for himself. He negotiated the surrender of Riverrun, kept his oaths to Catelyn, arranged protection for Sansa, sorted out Harrenhal, ended the Blackwood-Bracken feud, ordered the Freys to hand over their hostages, and presumably ended his relationship with Cersei.

With his hand, he was a prisoner in Riverrun. Without his hand, he is the conqueror of Riverrun.

Though physically agonizing, socially shameful, psychologically scarring, and potentially career ending, the loss of his right hand has forced Jaime to grow up. Without his hand, he's more of a whole person.

He's taken on more responsibility at work. He's become more accountable in his love life. He's striven to keep his oaths.

Chopping off his hand was meant to inhibit Jaime, but it has really spurred along his mental maturity.

Granted, he has not changed over night. He recently threatened to kill an unborn baby. And he's still supporting an illegal regime founded upon his own lies and treachery. But he now has a glimmer of hope for redemption... and that is only because Zollo, a fat Dothraki, chopped off his sword hand.