Who's your favourite non-POV character?

Connington is more Jean Valjean. ;)

I can't pick a single favorite Non POV character....there are so many. But the most intriguing to me is Lyanna and her story.
 
I watched episodes three, four, and five of Season Two tonight... and I remembered that Myrcella and Tommen are good kids... very un-Lannisterish.
 
Boaz said:
I watched episodes three, four, and five of Season Two tonight... and I remembered that Myrcella and Tommen are good kids... very un-Lannisterish.
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Are the Lannisters so bad?

Cersei is bad,
pre-redemption Jaime was bad,
Joff was a complete monster
and Tywin was terrible (he had responsibility thrust upon him at an early age because of his ineffectual father, this probably stunted his emotional development)

but there are worse families out there.

I mean, seriously, you could say that the Targs were worse than the Lannisters.
 
Ollie, sure you could say the Targs were worse. But just because Mao's leadership led directly to the deaths of sixty million people (give or take twenty million), it does not mean Hitler was a not "so bad."

Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Joffrey are the four who most exemplify the Lannister type. I'm not saying they're pure evil, just arrogant, manipulative, greedy, deceptive, lecherous, treacherous, lying murderers. All of them.

Yes, Jaime and Tyrion are my two favorite characters, but that does not mean I overlook their crimes. Jaime may be undergoing a change of heart, but as recently as the end of AFFC he threatened to murder a newborn child.

As for favorite non-POVs are concerned... Kevan is one of my faves. On the second page of the epilogue to ADWD it was clear that he was the POV... and I felt sick. I was angry at GRRM. I'd been waiting since the death of Eddard for another middle-aged (at least for Westeros), capable, veteran commander and administrator who actually would work for the good of the realm. Jon, Dany, Theon, and Asha are too inexperienced. Cersei and Arianne are fools. Jaime and Victarion are not an administrators. Tyrion was demoted and is currently in exile. Davos is not entrusted with enough power because Stannis always micromanages over his shoulder. Sansa is receiving a good education, but she'll never be a leader... just a manipulator. Which leaves us with Connington and BFS. I liked ADWD because of the introduction of these two POVs... and I thought for half a second that Kevan would join them. GAH!!!
 
Boaz said:
Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Joffrey are the four who most exemplify the Lannister type. I'm not saying they're pure evil, just arrogant, manipulative, greedy, deceptive, lecherous, treacherous, lying murderers. All of them.
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The Lannisters don't live in a world of butterflies rainbows and lollipops. They are the way they are for good reason, and are highly successful.

Tywin's father was not by all accounts an "arrogant, manipulative, greedy, deceptive, lecherous, treacherous, lying murderer", instead he was a nice and generous man who tried to be fair and avoided conflict. In his time the Westerlands were torn apart by internal rebellions and hostage taking. Not so with Tywin, and his lands and people have prospered.
 
Agreed. Absolutely. But I was just referring to the characters in the story. Lord Tytos was the opposite of the current batch of Lannisters just like there have been some real Starks who were real jerks.

Tywin, I love your namesake. Lord Tywin is a bit of Richard Neville, Tokugawa Ieyasu, and Otto von Bismark rolled into one. He's a great character... commanding, decisive, ruthless, intelligent, unforgiving, possessive, demanding, arrogant, diplomatic, opinionated, and consistent. And he is portrayed excellently by Charles Dance.
 
Boaz said:
Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Joffrey are the four who most exemplify the Lannister type. I'm not saying they're pure evil, just arrogant, manipulative, greedy, deceptive, lecherous, treacherous, lying murderers. All of them.

Yes, Jaime and Tyrion are my two favorite characters, but that does not mean I overlook their crimes. Jaime may be undergoing a change of heart, but as recently as the end of AFFC he threatened to murder a newborn child.
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I don't think it's fair to look at these characters as "bad" per se because of their actions.

Are there are any characters in the books who have not or would not arrange the death of someone if somehow benefited them or their cause?

Ned Stark was willing to sacrifice the lives of the three kingsguard and a few of his men in a battle to save his sister. Speaking in a pure utilitarian sense, the cost of several lives to potentially save one is not honourable or good. Ned Stark was willing to cut off Gared's head for abandoning the NW, merely because he knew it would as a deterrent for others to do so.

Was Jaime pushing Bran out of the window that bad? If he hadn't and he had let Bran go, he would likely have started a war. OK, I am arguing for the sake of it with this, but the point is, ASOIAF is a brutal, cut-throat world, where every character is willing to kill otherwise innocent people in order to further achieve their aims and goals, so I think merely recounting Jaime's actions and using that as justification for calling him bad is incorrect.

In fact, Jaime is one of the few characters along with Stannis & Varys who seem to apply sense. Ned was not willing to abandon his honour and prevent a war, but Jaime abandoned his completely, he was a Kingsguard who slay the King. But he did it to save thousands of lives. Jaime is one of the few characters worthy of respect, I reckon.

EDIT: btw, my favourite non-POV would be Stannis & Dolorous Ed.
 
Tom Badgerlock said:
I don't think it's fair to look at these characters as "bad" per se because of their actions.

Are there are any characters in the books who have not or would not arrange the death of someone if somehow benefited them or their cause?

Ned Stark was willing to sacrifice the lives of the three kingsguard and a few of his men in a battle to save his sister. Speaking in a pure utilitarian sense, the cost of several lives to potentially save one is not honourable or good. Ned Stark was willing to cut off Gared's head for abandoning the NW, merely because he knew it would as a deterrent for others to do so.

Was Jaime pushing Bran out of the window that bad? If he hadn't and he had let Bran go, he would likely have started a war. OK, I am arguing for the sake of it with this, but the point is, ASOIAF is a brutal, cut-throat world, where every character is willing to kill otherwise innocent people in order to further achieve their aims and goals, so I think merely recounting Jaime's actions and using that as justification for calling him bad is incorrect.

In fact, Jaime is one of the few characters along with Stannis & Varys who seem to apply sense. Ned was not willing to abandon his honour and prevent a war, but Jaime abandoned his completely, he was a Kingsguard who slay the King. But he did it to save thousands of lives. Jaime is one of the few characters worthy of respect, I reckon.

EDIT: btw, my favourite non-POV would be Stannis & Dolorous Ed.
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I beleive in Skinner's black box. When I strip away all of the rationalizing, lies, jsutifications, etc. all I have to think about is the behavior. Using this as a yardstick, it's not until well after aGoT do we start to even think that Jaime MIGHT have some good in him. I have never felt that about Cersei, based on all of the horrible things she has done.
 
Varys and Jaqen H'ghar. Varys pehaps being even a bit above Jaqen on my list, but they are pretty even.
 
I would say...Osha. Osha became somehow a mother-figure to Rickon Stark, the child with abandonment issues. Too young to suffer. I hope Davos will find them sane and safe. They could be in Widow's Watch... ;)
 
I like the point about Osha being a mother figure to Rickon (and in many ways a more effective mother than Catelyn because of Rickon's wild streak; very wildling-like that one is). She is definitely up there for non-POV characters and keeping with the wildlings: Mance Rayder. I see a "Call of the Wild" story in him: born a wildling, raised to be a man of the Night's Watch, but the natural instinct to be free and wear whatever color cloak he wanted was just too strong. But he still kept the charm and "civility" he had learned from his raising.
 
Registered just to say this and I am sure it's obvious by my name - Strong Belwas every time for me. Anyone who can pull off speaking in the third person is up there for me. Think that Missandei has lots of insight for a youngster and will prove invaluable to Danerys at some point.

Oh I also agree with the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped and are perhaps the 'real' parents of Jon Snow.
 
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