The Winds of Winter publishing date guesses?

I definitely want the show to get past the books and show the ending. I still believe it's the only way we'll see how the series ends. Moreso, I still believe it's the only way we'll see any material from TWoW let alone ADoS. Well, I guess technically there are sample chapters out already for TWoW. Anyway, it would be nice if someone just finished something. I'll take a TV series ending over nothing.
 
Boaz said:
Arstan, one of my shows, LOST, ended up meandering and just trying to just get by on nothing during the writer's strike about eight years ago or so. I hope HBO does not just fill the air with fluff waiting for GRRM.

Wert, as usual, you have my gratitude for sharing.
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Yeah I don't want them to just meander, like you said. I just also hope they aren't consticting themselves too much with a tight time frame. They have left out characters in the first few seasons and changed things to fit a limited season span, which is a necessity when working out how to transfer something from page to screen. I get that. But they have also added characters and events that weren't in the books, or were only implied in the books, as well as expanding on minor characters. Again, this is a necessity when adapting from a book to the screen, and in this case, it has worked out really well. Personally I would rather see them embelish on what's happening in Meereen and make it more intesting and thus fleshing it out a bit more so that it A) works better on screen than it did in the books and B) more importantly, give a little more time to Martin to finish his books.

I have said before that the Meereen story, with the Sons of the Harpy, has the potential for some really interesting scenes and some great television. in a way, Martin was limited by his own narrative because we only see POV of characters who hear about the attacks after the fact. With the show we can experience the attacks first hand. there is the opportunity there to see the whole other side of these events.

Vizion, I have a hard time believing we won't at least see tWoW in print.
 
3 part 2 of the books definitely has some great storylines that need attention in the tv series. But merging book 3 part 2, and books 4 and 5 into two series sounds like a good idea considering books 4 and 5 just aren't at the consistently high level of story telling as the earlier books. There is a lot in those with new characters that could be omitted or gone over quickly.

TWOW should come out not long before the matching series but it seems like we will have to accept the tv series finishing before the last book. 8 seasons is a long time for a tv series. Also the young characters will have aged so much more than in the books already.
 
Just noticed that this thread is two years old on Friday...:p

If I was still interested, I'd be pretty hacked off, but I stopped caring about what happens on Westeros a long time ago.
 
I came to the series late, only picking it up thanks to the TV show. I promptly read them all and it absolutely is my favourite series of books, despite not really being a Fantasy reader.

Having said that I consider myself fortunate that everything was available at the time I began reading, I don't think I could've handled the six or so year wait between SoS and Feast. It's pretty disheartening just waiting for Winds of Winter. I've pretty much made my mind up that the TV show will give us the ending, maybe with George writing more of the scripts. It seems almost impossible that GRRM will be able to write at a pace that keeps the novels ahead of the HBO version. My ultimate fear would be for the TV series to finish, then the books never surface. I hope at least he will finish it in prose also, so we get all the depth these novels are swimming in.

Also, does anyone else really think he will wrap it all up in only two books? I can't think of a single plotline that appears close to resolution. I can see it easily creeping up to three books at least.
 
Completing it in two is doable, but very, very tight. It would require GRRM to return to an economy of writing and pacing in the series that we haven't seen since AGoT (maybe ACoK at best), when he was much more willing to have major events happen off-page, which does not seem likely. My main concern about doing it in two books would be either rushing plot elements or giving them short shrift.

Still, the plotlines and characters are converging. In ASoS/AFFC and to some extend ADWD the characters were mostly by themselves, so you had one POV in each location, hence why we ended up with 19 or so active POVs. In TWoW and going forwards, we have more characters in the same location as one another (Theon/Asha, Tyrion/Victarion/Barristan and possibly Dany) which will help with the sprawl situation. If we see people like Sansa and Arya hooking up with other POVs, that will help more.

So two is difficult, but I think he'll be reluctant to expand to three. If he does expand to three, I think it'll be more a case of ADoS getting way too big to be published as one novel and split in two. If he does that, it's not so much of a problem as long as he writes and focuses on it as one novel, without a five-year wait between the two volumes (even if it means a six or seven or eight year wait before the two parts of ADoS).
 
As i stumbled across this thread thought I would go and see what was out there on the web and came across two snippets that have probably been previously mentioned but anyway -

In January 2014, Martin’s UK publisher, Jane Johnson, declared on Twitter that the book would “certainly” not be published before 2015
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and

George RR Martin recognizes that fans are impatient about the release of “Winds of Winter," the book following “Dance of Dragons” in the Game of Thrones series and he feels the pressure because the episodes are catching up to the latest book. He says that he has written over a thousand pages and is still working on it. He has not given a tentative release date as reported by International Digital Times. Martin offers previous chapters of major characters online. "But at the same time, sometimes I just wish they would stop pressuring me about it. It will be done when it's done. I'm working on it. I don't know what else I can say: I'm a slow writer, I've always been a slow writer, and these are gigantic books," he said. He said fans should not expect the book anytime soon.
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Has anyone ever heard Louis CK's bit on cell phones and airplanes? I'm not a LCK fan at all... he's never made me laugh... but his comments about how we demand instant gratification and disparage the miracles of worldwide communications and travel are spot on.

Did people badger Homer? "Hey, you didn't finish the story of Odysseus! You've been telling a four hour section at the campfire for nineteen straight nights... And you say you need a break? I need to know if Telemachus lives and if Antinous gets his!!! I can't believe I let you start another story after the big war story that you stretched out for a year. You're a jerk."

I wonder if Shakespeare had to deal with hate mail...

Deare Will,

It pains me to say unto thee what troubleth my soule. Yestereve's performanse of the Historie of King Henry VI causeth my mind to reele and my heart to quayle. Obviouslie thou didst not end the storie of Henry VI. Thou hast drawn out this tale to a second part for which I must needs wait an extent of six monthes and payest anon two pence to gaze upon. Thou art a knave if thou thinkest to enrich thyself at the expense of the Queen's subjects. And also overhear didst I that thou dost plan a further expansion of the storie as a Historie of King Henry V. If... oh, if this be true, then what? Must I wait again the full term of a yeare? Two of the most deadly of Satan's Seven are embodied in thou... Gluttonie and Sloth!

Sincerelie, John Mudbottom
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Look folks... You paid your fifty dollars for a hardback... ten for a paperback... or three at a used book store. Did you get your fifty dollars worth? I won't even ask if you feel you received proper entertainment for your purchase of a paperback. Did you get a bang for your entertainment buck? Let's list five of the biggest sci-fi, action, superhero, fantasy movies of the last year... Man of Steel, Catching Fire, Ender's Game, Iron Man 3, and The Hobbit 2. At $10 per film, that's roughly equivalent in price to a hardback. I'd rate the entertainment value of these movies at 3 out of 10... and I'd rate GRRM's last book as a seven. I think it was twice the story, twice the drama, twice the suspense and was ten times as satisfying as these films combined.

And now we have to wait for the next book... "The light went out in my closet! What are we going to do now?!?!" Alright, Mallory, if your problem is an expectation of instant gratification like the people mentioned by LCK, then you need to examine your heart and your priorities.

But mayhaps the real reason people need the next book is that they know they'll be in a different place in life when they read it, i.e. they'll be a different person with different views. It's nice to be nineteen and love Dany, but if you're thirty you may find yourself actually understanding and seeing yourself in Catelyn. It's nice to idolize Robb and Jon... you are certain that you could never end up like Jaime or Jorah. Monroe, Dean, Hendrix, and Kennedy all went out on top... young, talented, beautiful, idolized. Nobody wants to think that they could have ended up like Mike Tyson, Lance Armstrong, Heather Mills, Liz Taylor, or Michael Jackson. But can a person comeback after becoming Cersei or Theon? Should that question be answered overnight... or should Theon and I find the journey together over the years?

People griping at GRRM are like six year old in the backseat, "Are we there yet?" Kids have no concept of danger, speeds, road conditions, speed limits, and time. Sure, the dad could drive like a bat out of hell and put the entire family at risk to get there five minutes early, but the strain on his mind and the anger from his wife are definitely not worth it.

You'll get the book when you get the book. Just enjoy the journey while it lasts.
 
Probably...

I'm going to enjoy today. I'm going to enjoy posting on this wonderful forum that you've provided, Brian. I'm going to enjoy the next crackpot theory regarding Tyrion, Dany, and Jon. I'm also going to look forward to the day when Wert gives me more information... but I'll just enjoy my favorite characters today.... Jaime, Tyrion, Jorah and Dacey.....

Mmmmmmmmm, Dacey.
 
I disagree with almost your entire post, Boaz. I don't think anyone has been unreasonable in their impatience. Long time followers of the series are used to long waits. Long time readers of epic fantasies in general are pretty used to long waits. However, there's a point where the wait does become unreasonable especially in light of what's given to us when a book is finally released. Both AFFC and ADWD were chock full of bloat. There were entire chapters in ADWD in which absolutely nothing happened nor was any new relevant information given. I really could not care less about what Tyrion had for dinner.

We all know GRRM is a slow writer which would be fine if he were releasing tight, well paced books instead of what we got with AFFC and ADWD. It's perfectly reasonable to react with a, "We waited five years for *this*?" when we get books like that. I wish GRRM's editors were able to rein him in but apparently he's too big for that now and his books are suffering because of it and it's adding even more waiting time.

It's especially discouraging because other epic fantasy authors are able to crank out excellent books fairly quickly especially when compared to GRRM. I don't think anyone expects GRRM to blast out books like Sanderson but it's definitely not unreasonable to be cranky about waiting half a decade for each book.

Having said all that, I'm perfectly satisfied now that I know that at least the TV series will "end" the series. At some point it's reasonable to just want to know what the hell happens and therefore I don't find anyone being overly impatient with the pace of GRRM's releases.
 
To be honest with you if I get to see the ending on screen before I read it I might actually be ok with it. Considering how they have handled the books as far as converting it to television I have been very pleased.
Also anyone who thinks the show is getting canceled is on drugs. Its the best show on tv and there really isn't another show that is even in its league.


As far as publishing dates, my money would be on 2016 for Winds and 2020 for the last book. If that holds true, then the show will catch him.
 
viZ, then we'll have to disagree.

Let me start by saying my last post was not a comment on your previous post. My comments were not directed towards any posters in this thread but at the people sending GRRM hate mail as mentioned in Sleepless' post.

Internet tweets include...

"George R. R. Martin has no soul"

"Really want to slap the hell out of George R.R. Martin"

"YOU RUINED MY LIFE GEORGE R R MARTIN + IF YOU DIDN'T LOOK LIKE SANTA I'D PUNCH YOU IN YOUR STUPID OLD MAN FACE"

I have heard people say things like...

"I hope he dies."

"He's wasting time with the show and marketing and games when he should be writing."

"What am I going to do if the next book is not here by Christmas?"

"He doesn't even care. He's a sadist."

"If he never finishes it, I hope he burns in hell."

Until a book is published, the story belongs to the author. It would be very nice if he was a faster writer, but that doesn't give anyone the right to his blood and sweat. I cannot imagine receiving dozens of emails, seeing tweets, and hearing of blogs spewing this crap at me every day.

Lots of people call themselves fans, but they're just expectroids... robots who expect someone to meet every immediate want. I am tired of their vitriol veiled as right to opinion and their trolling couched as concern for the story.

Fair weather fans is a term originally directed towards people who only attend events when the climate is optimal. It now is used to describe people who like something when it is easy. Well, winter is not coming... Winter is here. It has been two and a half years since ADWD and will be at least another two before TWOW. Spring and Summer will be brief... and then it will be another five or six year Winter until ADOS. It's easy to be a fan when there's a new book to titillate the senses every nine months. It is difficult to gnaw on bones all winter.

Now that is a hyperbolic analogy. I mean we are free to read all manner of literature while we wait for TWOW. We don't have to starve our imaginations and emotions. But I feel that if I like something, I can wait. I am not a slave to impatience and anger.

I don't mean to be a GRRM apologist... (I believe that his theology is probably antithetical to mine... and I know his politics are the opposite of mine) but only ingrates can criticize a person who has given them vast entertainment and moved their emotions through art.

On the other hand, I am grateful that he's taking his time. Sanderson has authored four or more books since Martin's last... and if Sanderson is the benchmark of excellence, then a Big Mac must be haute cuisine. As for me, I'd rather have a gin and tonic, an appetizer, a sorbet as a palate cleanser, a salad, and then a filet mignon and lobster rather than a Whopper and Coke... and super sized fries.

Some claim the last two books are bloated... and I admit he has not trimmed the story of extra detail. I agree the pace is slower, but I feel that's natural with the introduction of so many new POVs, plots, and locations.

We're all free to voice our opinions worldwide in this day and age, but consumers, who cannot get enough of a story, amaze me by criticizing the creator.
 
I'm not an insider so I don't know...

But if I had to guess, I'd say he's not lost the story. I'd guess he was unprepared for the marketing monster the story has become. It's a hot brand right now. Millions upon millions are being made on this franchise and GRRM has to manage all that and produce more. The man is a writer, not a director of a product line.

A huge TV show. A board game. A card game. Miniatures. Sword replicas. Calendars. Artwork for international covers. T-shirts. Mugs. Cookbooks. Encyclopedias and Maps. Book signings. Fan mail. All these things and more must be dealt with incessantly to manage the brand.

And to protect the brand, he has to contact every person doing fan fiction and ask them to stop. If he does not, then he can lose rights to his own creation.

He also edits the Wild Card series.

And... he's married. He has friends. He has pets. He has to pay bills. He follows the NFL.

Come in here, dear boy.
Have a cigar... you're gonna go far.
You're gonna fly high.
You're never gonna die.
You're gonna make it if you try.
They're gonna love you.

Everybody else is just green.
Have you seen the chart?
It's a helluva start!
It could be made into a monster if we all pull together as a team.

And did we tell you the name of the game boy?
We call it riding the gravy train.
 
To be honest, I wasn't even thinking of the rest of the internet when I wrote my post. I was thinking entirely of this board. This place is the only way I use to interact with the GRRM universe and its fans. There's a reason I don't touch places like westeros.org. And Twitter? I'd sooner become a moderator on westeros than touch that cess pool (Twitter is great for news though). Anyway, Twitter and other social media sites like it really can't be taken seriously. The people on those sites aren't just mean and angry and impatient with GRRM; they are mean and angry and impatient with *everything*. That's a larger problem that has nothing to do with GRRM's writing pace.

I stand by my post when applied to this board. Our agreement stems from the fact that you believe the story is his until he releases it and I think that he has a responsibility to his readers to produce his work in a more timely fashion. I'm not asking for instant gratification or anywhere near that. But, yes, I would like *some* resolution without waiting decades to get it.
 
You're nuts Boaz, Louis CK is hilarious.

having said that, I agree with allot of your post. I am not on Tiwtter or facebook and, like ViZ, i pretty much only come here to get my aSoIaF fix and to talk to fans. I don't even check martin's blog. Some of those tweets you posted are aweful. I don't understand how people who consider themselves fans could also claim to hate the man so much. ViZ is right that the people on here have pretty much been patient, but you are right that people need to stop attacking Martin for taking his time to write some fantastic books.

All that said, I don't think anyone would complain if tWoW was in our hands tomorrow.
 
viZion said:
Our agreement stems from the fact that you believe the story is his until he releases it and I think that he has a responsibility to his readers to produce his work in a more timely fashion.
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This should say our disagreement...
 
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