GRRM ruined a song of ice and fire by killing too many good characters

I can comprehend how you feel, Joao, even if I don't quite agree. I mean, when I read the Red Wedding, to stop reading the books crossed my mind, but I never really took it into consideration. Back then, I hated Catelyn, and although I though, and still think, Robb was an interesting character, I could see he was losing the war anyway. In a story level of perspective, I think it was merciful of Martin to just kill him, suddenly and unexpectedly, rather than torture us readers with a new succession of failures.

That's why I disagree with some people here, who thinks Martin has made a habit of killing characters when they're about to win. That has happened sometimes (Renly, Tywin), but Robb's death is not one of them. He was, to a degree, foolish. He made mistakes. He trusted Theon, and for that, he lost both the North and his brothers. He married Jeyne Westerling, and for that, he lost the Frey's support and fall right into Tywin's trap. Edmure's stupidity didn't help his cause either.

Plus, we were all warned of Robb's death. There were a number of subtle and not so subtle clues. I don't expect anyone could understand the prophecies about the Red Wedding, but the unusual satisfaction of Tywin with the betrayal of the Westerling was very suspicious, and I doubt Martin could have been more explicit than in the Davos chapter where Stannis burns the leeches while murmuring the names of his oponents. You can choose not to belive the latter is real magic, but considering Melisandre's past doings, you should had at least expected something to happen, specially after Balon's demise. In thant, Joao, you were lucky. I somehow managed to miss the first half of Storm of Swords without realizing it, only reading it very long after.

But as I was saying at the beginning of this post, the Red Wedding was shocking, but I don't think Martin decided to kill Robb and Catelyn just to surprise us poor readers. As I proved in the previous paragraph, it wasn't a rushed decission. It was carefully planned and suggested several times before it happened. I don't think he kills a character after another in order to seem more realistic. I think he does it to remove characters from the stage. There are simply too many of them, and most are competing in this Game of Thrones. And I believe he also does it because A Song of Ice and Fire is a bit like a survival story, and many people read it because they want to know who's still alive by the end.

For what you say, I take it that what you don't like is that your favorite character, as well as your favorite subplot, have been, let's say, terminated. I find it comprehensible. I wouldn't like to read a story where the characters I most like have all died. But even so, if I were you, I would keep reading. Why? Because it won't hurt you to do so and you might be surprised. Because first impressions are tough, and you may take a while in leaving them behind. Trust me, I also thoug the series were ruined when I finished the third book, although it was mostly because I only read half the book. And who knows, you may end up taking some other character's cause. I supported Robb till he died, and now I'm with Stannis. Short version: give the series a chance.

And note that I don't even really like A Song of Ice and Fire. I think people give it too much credit. I would expose my reasons why, but that would be off topic. Let's just say that, in a more personal way, it doesn't upset me as much Martin killing good characters (in the moral sense), as most of his good character being idiots and/or lacking personality, or being obsesed with honor. Being honorable and being good is not the same thing. For a Kingsguard Knight it's honorable to stand by doing nothing while a madman burns people alive, and keep protecting and supporting that madman no matter what else he does, but there's no way you're convincing me that's morally right, oath broken or oath kept. Anyhow, I still think these series are amusing and well-written, so I keep following it.


I really liked your comments. You've certainly made me think again about reading A Feast for Crows, but I have to say: I still think GRRM killing spree was needless and cheap. The hints you pointed out may have been there, but that only means that he edited some previous chapters before the Red Wedding to to insert them. This subtle preparation does nothing to make the deaths less cheap, in my opinion.

I'd say Robb was not my favorite character, and I hated Cat, but the subplot they represented (Starks X Lannisters) definetly was, and for me it was ruined with their stupid deaths (and Joffrey's and Tywin's). It makes it worse that said subplot was actually presented to us in the first book as the central plot, imo, and GRRM worked really hard to get us invested in the Starks.

Thinking back after reading your comments, perhaps I should have titled this post differently: "GRRM ruined aSoIaF for me by ruining the 'subplot' he made me believe was the central plot and would therefore have a satisfying conclusion".

I agree with you entirely about the lack of personality and idiocy of some characters. I wouldn't call Edmure idiot, though. Ned, on the other hand...


Well, that's my opinion. I hope you consider my advice, and that of others. By the way, are you Brazilian? Your name and location make me think so. Even if I'm right, I don't speak portugués, so please don't try that with me xD,

Yes, I am Brazilian! I won't try any portuguese with you, as long as you excuse my rusty english!

I will try reading A Feast for Crows... I am sadly convinced, even though I am aware it is wrong of me, that I will never get myself as immersed in this series as I was when I was rooting for the Starks.
 
Joao, I have stayed completely out of this conversation, mainly because I am of the opinion that if you don't like something, don't read it! Plus I certainly would never go to a forum about something I don't like in order to complain or try to convince others not to like it. Total waste of my time, I have little enough of it!

I do now have one statement to make. You say you are no longer interested because you were routing for the Starks and GRRM took that away from you. This really makes no sense! The only Starks that are dead are Ned and Robb, Cat is changed yes but still around. You are basically saying that Ned and Robb where the only Starks or at least the only one's worth caring about. Out of a family of 8, you lose 2 and no longer care what happens to the rest?? Seems to me it should make you care more not less.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Joao, I have stayed completely out of this conversation, mainly because I am of the opinion that if you don't like something, don't read it! Plus I certainly would never go to a forum about something I don't like in order to complain or try to convince others not to like it. Total waste of my time, I have little enough of it!

I do now have one statement to make. You say you are no longer interested because you were routing for the Starks and GRRM took that away from you. This really makes no sense! The only Starks that are dead are Ned and Robb, Cat is changed yes but still around. You are basically saying that Ned and Robb where the only Starks or at least the only one's worth caring about. Out of a family of 8, you lose 2 and no longer care what happens to the rest?? Seems to me it should make you care more not less.

Just my 2 cents.

Well, Ned is dead, Robb is dead and Cat is worse than dead. Bran is sweet but boring, Rickon is blank so far, Arya is sociopath, Sansa is dumb. These remaining Starks, though nice enough, are not fit to exact revenge against the bad guys. And even if they were, they couldn't: Tywin and Joffrey are dead. Cersei is a joke.

About my post, I've read three big books. I had an opinion and wanted to share it. More than that, I wanted to know other people's thoughts about it. "Don't like, don't read it anymore"? Fine. "Don't like, don't post on forums to read other opinions, that'll be a waste of time"? Really?
 
Well, Ned is dead, Robb is dead and Cat is worse than dead. Bran is sweet but boring, Rickon is blank so far, Arya is sociopath, Sansa is dumb. These remaining Starks, though nice enough, are not fit to exact revenge against the bad guys. And even if they were, they couldn't: Tywin and Joffrey are dead. Cersei is a joke.

About my post, I've read three big books. I had an opinion and wanted to share it. More than that, I wanted to know other people's thoughts about it. "Don't like, don't read it anymore"? Fine. "Don't like, don't post on forums to read other opinions, that'll be a waste of time"? Really?

Gotta agree with most of the above. I come to this forum because it is possible to post a dissenting opinion and not be flamed for it (or banned). If I wanted to do nothing but talk with zealots then I'd be on Westeros.org. Sure, there is still a heavy sentiment of "GRRM can do no wrong" on these forums but at least even those people are open to discussion. I think this has been a good thread.

I also agree that the Starks can't really exact revenge against the Lannisters. I know a lot of people like to point to Arya and her list as the Stark Avenger but her list is stupid. There are no important names on there. Cersei is, as you said, a joke. Killing her doesn't do a whole lot to improve the Stark situation.

Where I disagree is that this story isn't about the Starks vs. Lannisters. At the very least, it's moved on from that which is why most people don't care if the Starks get their revenge. That's not really the point of the story anymore. Joffrey and Tywin did get their comeuppance though. Anyway, I realize that's theme of the story you liked and you're upset that that theme is now gone. That's fine. It doesn't return in AFFC or ADWD. If you're not interested in what's happening now then what can you do but stop reading? I've stopped reading a series before when it became uninteresting to me. Quite a few of them actually.
 
Well, Ned is dead, Robb is dead and Cat is worse than dead. Bran is sweet but boring, Rickon is blank so far, Arya is sociopath, Sansa is dumb. These remaining Starks, though nice enough, are not fit to exact revenge against the bad guys. And even if they were, they couldn't: Tywin and Joffrey are dead. Cersei is a joke.

Lol! I know what you mean. :)

However, the series is called "A Song if Ice and Fire", in which case I look to Jon and Dany as being the eventual keystones for this.

While it would have been nice to see the Starks do more, really, there didn't seem much to myself they could do together after Game of Thrones. They were already scattered. Robb was never a POV character, so I never felt attached to what he was doing. And personally, I'd much prefer it if Cat stayed dead. :D
 
Gotta agree with most of the above. I come to this forum because it is possible to post a dissenting opinion and not be flamed for it (or banned). If I wanted to do nothing but talk with zealots then I'd be on Westeros.org. Sure, there is still a heavy sentiment of "GRRM can do no wrong" on these forums but at least even those people are open to discussion. I think this has been a good thread.
.
I agree that what I love about this forum is our ability to post dissenting opinions. We (politely) argue and disagree about many things, that is not my problem with joao posts, all may express their opinion here and I love them for it!
Well, Ned is dead, Robb is dead and Cat is worse than dead. Bran is sweet but boring, Rickon is blank so far, Arya is sociopath, Sansa is dumb. These remaining Starks, though nice enough, are not fit to exact revenge against the bad guys. And even if they were, they couldn't: Tywin and Joffrey are dead. Cersei is a joke.

About my post, I've read three big books. I had an opinion and wanted to share it. More than that, I wanted to know other people's thoughts about it. "Don't like, don't read it anymore"? Fine. "Don't like, don't post on forums to read other opinions, that'll be a waste of time"? Really?

My opinion is this: Yes I would consider it a waste of my time to continue discussing a book I was no longer interested in. There are plenty of great stories out there, I would much rather spend time looking for them than investing more time in something I did not care about. What follows are your own words on the matter:

So, for me, all the emotion I put on the books so far was a waste of time.
That's just it: I don't care anymore about them.
Now, I'll just wait a few years to ask someone how Dany conquered Westeros back and how Jon Snow restored order in the north. And I truly won't care at all who lived and who died.
So there you have it. No reason to keep reading.
I rest my case.
 
Where I disagree is that this story isn't about the Starks vs. Lannisters. At the very least, it's moved on from that which is why most people don't care if the Starks get their revenge. That's not really the point of the story anymore. Joffrey and Tywin did get their comeuppance though. Anyway, I realize that's theme of the story you liked and you're upset that that theme is now gone. That's fine. It doesn't return in AFFC or ADWD. If you're not interested in what's happening now then what can you do but stop reading? I've stopped reading a series before when it became uninteresting to me. Quite a few of them actually.

Thanks for your inputs, ViZion. I would just like to add that we don't exactly disagree about the story not being about Starks vs. Lannisters. That is not the point of the story anymore, I agree. I also think aSoIaF is a lot larger than their struggle. Well, I do have another thing to add, but I not arguing with you, it is just a general thought: even if that was a subplot, it was a very important one. I expected a satisfying conclusion, at the very least (not a happy ending, a satisfying conclusion). For instance, I wanted Ned to revenge John Aryn, and when he died, I was sad. But I knew that wasn't the conclusion of that storyline, and I came back even more interested in the series. Then Robb, Cat, Joffrey and Tywin died, and Cersei was never responsible for anything that mattered. Now I think it is just to much to transfer my expectations of revenge to another Stark, one more time. And as I said, even if I wanted to, the remaining Starks are not interesting, and the Lannisters are already broken.

I'm sorry, I just realized I've been repeating myself over and over again! But I really enjoyed some of the responses I got here on this forum. I appreciate your opinion, and I think it is much better than "don't like it, don't read it and don't waste time posting your opinion online".
 
I agree that what I love about this forum is our ability to post dissenting opinions. We (politely) argue and disagree about many things, that is not my problem with joao posts, all may express their opinion here and I love them for it!


My opinion is this: Yes I would consider it a waste of my time to continue discussing a book I was no longer interested in. There are plenty of great stories out there, I would much rather spend time looking for them than investing more time in something I did not care about. What follows are your own words on the matter:





I rest my case.

Should we only talk about aSoIaF if we love it forever unconditionally?

I know it won't happen, this is just a ridiculous argument: if in the next book GRRM does something that truly disappoints you (God forbid!), like, he reveals that everything was just Bran dreaming after he fell from the tower, wouldn't you waste 20 minutes to talk about it how you felt about that with someone? Would you stay silent and search for new reading material?

Well, reading three books for me was enough to "waste" my time and post my thoughts. I got some very interisting replies and many got me thinking. The most unnecessary one was "if you're not going to read anymore, don't waste your time talking about it and listening to other people's opinions".
 
Well, Ned is dead, Robb is dead and Cat is worse than dead. Bran is sweet but boring, Rickon is blank so far, Arya is sociopath, Sansa is dumb. These remaining Starks, though nice enough, are not fit to exact revenge against the bad guys. And even if they were, they couldn't: Tywin and Joffrey are dead. Cersei is a joke.
The need to avoid giving away spoilers prevents some of us pointing out the odd error in at least part of your logic.

Having said that, if your interest in the series is confined to one small part of it, albeit it one that was to the fore in the first book, you were always going to be disappointed when the focus inevitably moved elsewhere. For me, the very complexity is what draws me in, together with the shades of grey demonstrated by the actions of most of the characters and the lack of predicatability in thr plot(s). And the way GRRM can make one care for characters who've done terrible things - Jaime and his attempt at child murder, for example - is a real bonus.
 
The need to avoid giving away spoilers prevents some of us pointing out the odd error in at least part of your logic.
Sorry, I did not understand what you meant. And what would be the odd error in part of my logic? I am not being sarcastic, I ask this really humbly and open to criticism, truly!

Having said that, if your interest in the series is confined to one small part of it, albeit it one that was to the fore in the first book, you were always going to be disappointed when the focus inevitably moved elsewhere.
I have to disagree here. I think I would have loved when the focus moved elsewhere if the story arc I cared about the most (not the only one) had a satisfying conclusion (not a happy ending, a satisfying conclusion). The deaths of the characters I mentioned and the way they died made that impossible. After reading some replies to my original post, I came to the conclusion that I could have titled it better. I've already said that. Maybe it should be "GRRM ruined the subplot I considered the most appealing by killing too many interisting characters, therefore ruining aSoIaF for me".
My interest was not confined to one small part of the series. I liked many of the other plots (except for Dany's, I always hated it). Rather, my interest was centered in what was presented as the main plot, at least until the Others arrived or Dany made her move.

For me, the very complexity is what draws me in, together with the shades of grey demonstrated by the actions of most of the characters and the lack of predicatability in thr plot(s). And the way GRRM can make one care for characters who've done terrible things - Jaime and his attempt at child murder, for example - is a real bonus.
I also like the shades of grey of the characters, and how GRRM can make us care about the "bad guys". I wouldn't use Jaime as my example, but I totally get your point. For me it would be Theon, who did terrible things but was always someone I cared about. This is off topic, but I can't help to ramble on: I think his situation was very peculiar and original from the start - a boy from a land of very unscrupulous and hard man raised by good people as a hostage and a ward. Then he gets a chance to go back to his land he no longer belongs to. He goes with one objective, then puts it aside and becomes desperate to regain his father's love and respect, as well as prove himself, and does some horrible things. Even after each terrible deed, I could comprehend his motivation and feel sorry for him.

I will wait for your response!
 
The need to avoid giving away spoilers prevents some of us pointing out the odd error in at least part of your logic.

Sorry, I did not understand what you meant. And what would be the odd error in part of my logic? I am not being sarcastic, I ask this really humbly and open to criticism, truly!

I think what Ursa is trying to say here (and I agree with him) is that some of the points you made are no longer valid due to events that have happened after the point that you stoped reading. Meaning to say, if you read on, you MAY be pleasently surprised to find things have changed for a few characters that puts them in a more advantagous position?

Totally off topic, I also wanted to touch on somethinig that you sad that was echoed by I, Brian. That being, "Cersei is a Joke". While I agree that she is actually quite a terrible player of the game, she makes the wrong decision at every turn, and actually thinks she is bieng clever. All this I agree with, but I would never say she is a joke. In my opinion, she is the worst kind of terrible, because she is so stupid and ignorent.

It's like giving a baby a handgun. Something bad is going to hapen, but no matter how bad, that baby isn't going to be punished. and to make things worse, someone gives the handgun Back!
 
I wouldn't say he ruined it but Robb Starks death scene really annoyed me. Ok I was devastated he was my favourite character and though I think Dany will win and I always have I hoped that Robb would bend the knee to her. They actually said the North only bent the knee to the dragons so that's what I hoped would happen. Now I hope every Frey dies slowly and painfully.
 
I wouldn't say he ruined it but Robb Starks death scene really annoyed me. Ok I was devastated he was my favourite character and though I think Dany will win and I always have I hoped that Robb would bend the knee to her. They actually said the North only bent the knee to the dragons so that's what I hoped would happen. Now I hope every Frey dies slowly and painfully.

Ah yes, Lady Stoneheart.
 
Apart from the obvious(Ned losing his head and TRW) the only other time I felt like calling up George and saying 'FFS, man, leave your characters alone.' was when Oberyn Martell headed for the minty highway.

Not out of anger at the loss of another great character, but out of dismay that Martin felt comfortable in getting rid of characters who in themselves deserved books of their own. There was also the aknowledgment that George had enough strong characters left to continue on the story. That for me is part of his genius.
 
Apart from the obvious(Ned losing his head and TRW) the only other time I felt like calling up George and saying 'FFS, man, leave your characters alone.' was when Oberyn Martell headed for the minty highway.

Not out of anger at the loss of another great character, but out of dismay that Martin felt comfortable in getting rid of characters who in themselves deserved books of their own. There was also the aknowledgment that George had enough strong characters left to continue on the story. That for me is part of his genius.

You might be on to something there. Maybe GRRM gets rid of characters that aren't necessary for the story's continuation BUT pose a threat of derailing the story because they are so amazing and are fan-favourites. Ned was doomed from the start and I think Robb was too, but there are other characters that he introduced as huge bad-asses and subsequently killed off because at least then we get some closure and won't be wondering when or if these people will come back into the story.
 
GRRM gives and GRRM takes... we must remember that by taking from us some good character to love, he gave us some bad character to hate - any emotion is good, even negative emotion :). for example as gargantuan as was my misery over Red Wedding, was my satisfaction if something bad happened to some Frey and what more bad things are expecting them in future...without grieving Ned's death scene I wouldn't enjoyed Joffrey's death scene so much etc. So I believe GRRM knows how to play with us ;)
 
GRRM gives and GRRM takes... we must remember that by taking from us some good character to love, he gave us some bad character to hate - any emotion is good, even negative emotion :). for example as gargantuan as was my misery over Red Wedding, was my satisfaction if something bad happened to some Frey and what more bad things are expecting them in future...without grieving Ned's death scene I wouldn't enjoyed Joffrey's death scene so much etc. So I believe GRRM knows how to play with us ;)

Oh yes, he certainly does.
 
I agree with the person who started the thread. The books are well written, but George R.R. Martin is a manipulative author who makes the reader think it's going to be about the Starks (most of the pov characters in the first book are after all Starks) and their road to justice. But as the story goes on, the Starks get killed, Winterfell is burned, Daenerys goes from one bad decision to the next, but somehow miraculously survives, and those ******* Lannisters still sit on the throne. The biggest issue is the deception. That the author clearly wants you to believe that it's about the Starks, but then he kills them off, and you're left there wondering why you should bother reading on. I want to know how it ends, I'll admit that, but, I don't care much about the characters anymore, and even if the Starks somehow get revenge, it would be a hollow victory, just like joaomadeira1000 said.

As most people I was surprised when Ned died in the first season, but since this actually had some originality to it and it served the story, I accepted it. The Red Wedding, on the other hand, I was absolutely pissed. I threw the book away in disgust. I had previously said to myself that if Robb dies this story is more or less over for me, and it is. I don't care anymore. The problem is that the author does the exact same thing twice, the first time with Ned, it worked, but the second time when Robb is killed in the worst possible way, it just felt like a cheap trick to shock the readers. Reading A Feast For Crows (especially the chapters from Cersei's pov) I kept asking myself why I bothered reading, cause there's so much cruelty and inhuman behaviour, and there's so many characters I don't give a **** about. A Dance With Dragons is even worse, the pacing is so slow that reading it felt like a chore. The book builds up to the battles for what seems like an eternity, but then somehow manages to end before any of them have been fought. Another cheap trick to make you keep reading I guess.

I also find it strange how the characters and the books have been praised for their realism. I disagree with this. The are too many bad characters, there are too many characters who are cruel, treacherous, power-hungry and dishonourable. Humans have flaws, but everyone aren't backstabbers, rapists and coldblooded murderers. Even if the Dark Ages were harder times, I don't believe humans were so much more evil back then, it just doesn't make any sense. We are after all descended from these people, if they had such propensity for doing evil things, we would have that today as well (and before anyone says that we do, I'll just say no, we don't).

So there you have my two cents. I assume most here disagree with me, and that's okay, but please don't tell me I have misunderstood the story because that's not the case. I just don't like the turns the story has taken.
 
I'd say people are plenty cruel, and most of us here on these forums are just priviliged enough not to live in countries where rape, murder, ... are just lurking around the corner.
 

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