A place for horse related questions

[Kerrybuchanan]

@Kylara is definitely the one to answer this as she does carriage driving.

 

[Kylara]

Haha, yes. Well horse drawn sleighs do exist.

There is an American prisoner wagon called a growler but that has wheels.

You can get covered sleighs that a couple of people can fit in, but a friend of a driving buddy was once transported by open sleigh with a prison officer sat next to him through the night from one gulag to another and on chatting with my driving buddy we came to the conclusion that this is the most probable solution.

So an open topped sleigh with a guard in with your prisoners (probably sitting next to/near the driver), especially as if they tried to escape they would get caught pretty much immediately due to the snow and probably being manacled. It is a fantastic way to travel and those sorts of sleigh are usually pulled by sturdy hairy pony types (think mongol horses). Hope that has helped

 

[Denise Tanaka]

Haha, yes. Well horse drawn sleighs do exist.

There is an American prisoner wagon called a growler but that has wheels.

You can get covered sleighs that a couple of people can fit in, but a friend of a driving buddy was once transported by open sleigh with a prison officer sat next to him through the night from one gulag to another and on chatting with my driving buddy we came to the conclusion that this is the most probable solution.

So an open topped sleigh with a guard in with your prisoners (probably sitting next to/near the driver), especially as if they tried to escape they would get caught pretty much immediately due to the snow and probably being manacled. It is a fantastic way to travel and those sorts of sleigh are usually pulled by sturdy hairy pony types (think mongol horses). Hope that has helped

Thanks for the answer! It's true, you don't have to worry about prisoners running away if they jump out. Where would they go?

 

[Kylara]

Indeed! Also, coming from someone that regularly jumps on and off moving carriages, anything faster than a walk is hard to get on or dismount from without practice, they go quite fast! And I only ever jump on/off at a trot if I have to, never ever tried if going faster as very tricky without actually hurting self in the process!

 

[SleepyDormouse]

Can anyone help me with my horse questions please?

I am worried that my get away scene with a gypsy caravan being pulled by one horse (gypsy vanner type) is a bit unbelievable.. they wouldn't be able to go very fast or long would they? I think I may need to create an obstruction so riders on horses can't keep up? (they are on a cart track through woodland).

Also, after the get away they find a hidden clearing, unharness, groom and then let horse loose.. she rolls around in the grass. Ok so far? Do I need to keep her on some sort of lead so she doesn't wander off into the woods?

 

[SleepyDormouse]

Another thought, there is a stream in the clearing. Would you take the horse to drink as soon as unharnessed, or do as above and leave her to drink when she wants.

 

[The Judge]

Not a horse-y person, but I have to say I wouldn't believe a scenario with a gypsy caravan drawn by one horse being faster than mounted riders, so if magic of some kind isn't available either to make the gypsy horse faster or the riders slower, I think you need the occupants of the caravan to create obstacles once the caravan is through eg causing a landslide/avalanche that cuts off the only pass (I'm channelling Seven Brides for Seven Brothers here!). Off the top of my head I can't think of anything they can do quickly in a woodland that would stop riders, though -- mounted men don't need to keep to the path, so could circumvent anything like a fallen tree even if jumping it were impossible/too dangerous.

Most years in the paper we get photos of horses from eg one of the cavalry regiments/mounted police rolling over in a field as they rejoice in a summer holiday, and I've seen horses do it in the field opposite us, though I'm never sure if it's in a kind of joy of freedom or just to scratch their backs, so I'm agog to hear the answer to that one!

Re cold water, remember Black Beauty -- it can make them seriously ill if they drink too much too quickly after vigorous exercise, and presumably the horses themselves don't know to regulate their drinking, so I suspect your horse would need to be watered and brought away again, but again I'm interested in hearing the experts on that.

 

[SleepyDormouse]

Thanks Judge, I really need to think through why the horse drawn caravan can get away, as you are right it just doesn't work at the moment. They are fleeing a village where they were captured and used a large show of magic to escape, so the main magic user is too worn out to do much. The villagers will be too frightened to chase, but the main person after them and his men would have good horses and be determined to catch them. Perhaps the fire (caused by magic earlier) could have frightened their horses enough that they have bolted, finding them again or getting the villagers horses could cause enough delay for the caravan to get a head start.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

OK. *Rolls sleeves up*

First, TJ is quite right on all counts, despite her claim to non-horsey-ness *invented word *

A horse pulling a cart, especially a gypsy-type cob, would not be capable of out-running ridden horses. Also horses with riders would be more than capable going over or round obstacles that would stop a wagon. One solution I've seen used, if they have a reasonable head start, would be to have the wagon manage to cross a swift-flowing river after a heavy rainstorm. The level could rise quickly in those conditions, making it dangerous or impossible for the pursuers to cross. A gypsy cob is a strong, heavy beast and more able to cope with a river current than finer riding horses whose centre of gravity is higher with riders on board. It gives you plenty of scope to have your heroes almost losing their lives as they get partially washed downstream, the faithful horse valiantly putting her heart and soul into pulling the heavy wagon to safety.

Drinking cold water, as TJ says, not good for the horse. Small amounts only. They would probably either tether the horse to graze or hobble the front legs so she could only walk a few steps. She would definitely enjoy a good roll in the grass and then shake herself when she stands back up.

 

[goldhawk]

Re cold water, remember Black Beauty -- it can make them seriously ill if they drink too much too quickly after vigorous exercise, and presumably the horses themselves don't know to regulate their drinking, so I suspect your horse would need to be watered and brought away again, but again I'm interested in hearing the experts on that.

People don't know they should regulate their consumption of water after vigorous exercise. Too often, they find out the hard way.

 

[SleepyDormouse]

A river is a good suggestion, thanks. How deep would that fast flowing water be Kerry? Too deep and surely it will have a lot of drag on the side of the caravan. I think I remember that even knee deep water can wash people away if fast enough.. will Google. Or... maybe I can have a dramatic surge of water after they have gone past. Lord of the rings style.

Can a horse that's hobbled still roll?

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

No to rolling with hobbles but she would likely roll on a lead rein as soon as the harness taken off.

Kylara can correct me in terms of horses dragging a wagon through deep water but I would say it's reasonable to have water up to the top of the horse's legs or just below the floor of the wagon, whichever is least, and still have a chance of survival in fast flowing water. It would be touch and go at that depth though.

If there is heavy rain in a mountainous region rivers can fill very fast indeed though even without elven magic.

 

[Kylara]

Sorry for such a late response!

With carriages, pretty much if you are going fast enough you will be fine in deep water (been submerged in a water (river) obstacle before) as long as the horse can pull (so hooves on the ground). A gypsy caravan won't get swept away as it is too heavy. So you would be fine pulling caravan through river as long as the horse can still pull You can go at a fair clip in a carriage as once the momentum is up it helps keep itself moving, and depending on how fit the horse is you may get away with cantering a gypsy caravan for a short while - but you would be overtaken by mounted riders. (Oh and beware of sharp turns!).

I would suggest that you may get muscle cramping issues if the river is too cold and you keep going for much longer after going through but it is do-able.

A good thing to do would be to destroy/steal the saddles/bridles of the horses, or let them loose before you escape (or both!).

In the clearing I'd say either stake or hobble the horse (or both). Horse will roll and get itself as filthy as possible But would need to do that on a lead rope as not easy with hobbles/staked! Drinking wise, intake needs to be controlled after exercise and you don't want super cold water. Little and often is the best way (oh and don't feed immediately either) If exertion is high you may need to unharness and walk around to cool off until respiration rate is down and may need to sponge/wash off to remove sweat otherwise you will end up with a sore horse next time you harness up!

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Phew, thank you, Kylara. I was biting my nails in case I had said something wrong in terms of the carriage driving!

 

[SleepyDormouse]

Thank you

 

[Kylara]

Just had this posted to my FB newsfeed from one of the driving groups and thought you might be interested - this is a ford somewhere in Essex I think and as you can see, not a problem for the riders or the carriages! You can go deeper than this too

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

That is a brilliant photo, Kylara. Love it.

Would it make a difference if the river was that deep but flowing fast, hitting the waggon from the side? I've never driven but I have ridden horses through deep water and think it would be harder if it's fast-flowing. Would the waggon make it easier for the horses to keep their feet or harder, I wonder? Just thinking out loud but I'd love to know the answer.

 

[Kylara]

Fast flowing should be fine - most carriages are pretty heavy (aside from purpose built lightweight marathon carriages - light to be faster through the stages!) so they won't get washed away. There isn't much the river can flow against other than spokes and maybe the base/bottom of the carriage - as you usually have at least driver and groom/backstep so that is more weight. That weight will help the horse stay grounded so as long as you keep moving and the horse can reach the bottom you should be fine (as I think I said in a previous post We have been submerged in a marathon carriage (up to driver's knees). If the water is too high for horse to touch the bottom then you are in trouble!

 

[SleepyDormouse]

Thank you for the photo. I have been scouring the internet for pictures/youtubes of these sorts of crossings

I have the deepest water reaching the horses belly, and near to lapping at the caravan's footboard (it has big wheels but this seems about standard height in gypsy caravans). I had wondered if my characters need to get out of the caravan to make it lighter to pull, easier for the horse, but it sounds like heavier is better for stability.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I have a question!

According to my sources, mediaeval knights had their stirrups set up in a way that kept their legs long and straight. I'm not entirely sure whether this means the knight's legs were kept straight down, or raised somewhere just in front of the knight, like sitting on a flat surface.

However, the big problem I've just realised is that if the legs are kept straight, then how would a knight be able to match the rhythm of the horse with their body, especially in a trot and a canter? I seem to remember using bent knees to help maintain posture and rhythm, and that failure to do so would result in a sore bum!

Yet how would a mediaeval knight be able to match the rhythm of their horse, in different gaits, if they cannot use their legs for support? Is it the case that their legs are somewhat forward, and therefore they lift themselves slightly, useful the saddle pommel, to keep rhythm?

Am a little foxed about this, but I've just come to a section where knowing is essential, and I wasn't planning on another horse riding trip until after Spring! Even then, I doubt they'd let me mess with the stirrups for research purposes!