A place for horse related questions

[Ray McCarthy]

You'll have to get your own armour and pony to experiment ...

Anyway, I'm here with a horse question relating to my WIP.

A party of 6 travelling light (say little more than some water, maybe some oats, one change of clothes, no bedrolls, no tents, no food, no armour.) six horses, so no remounts.
At some point both nights (maybe after 2 to 3 hours) they have a rendezvous and swap ALL the horses with fresh ones (three of the people changed too) AND get six extra horses.
End of summer, neither cold at night (5 C), nor hot during day ( 21 C).
Travelling at night on mostly on decent roads but maybe 1/4 is open grazed land (so no long grass, bushes etc).
Only a couple of hours daylight travel after first night, they started at dusk, in the first daytime, they rest in an Inn and set off at dusk on six fresh horses.
Two to three hours after dark they swap three people and have twelve fresh horses again, like 1st night
After 2nd night they travel on a poorer route, but it's a sort of bridle path that doesn't have wheeled traffic, till late afternoon.
Let's assume mostly flat and last day is mostly gentle downhill or flat.

How far could they have travelled assuming they ride as fast is sensible?

I'm guessing they'd be lucky to average 6km per hour?
Is 120km possible in the two nights, early hours one morning and till late afternoon in second day? I suspect even with so many horse changes, that might be optimistic.
Assume there are suitable places to water horses as often as needed and horses get some oats or something on the journey. So if my count is correct the 6 people have ridden 36 horses. Three people were troopers (four different lots), three are some of my important people (Teenagers, an Elf, Dwarf and my human like Faerie) getting escorted from A to B.
The eldest Teenager, an Elf girl has never ridden before, never even been on anything other than a wagon, once. I suspect she is very sore even by the 1st rendezvous and totally wrecked?

I was about 12 when I had my first riding lesson and I think even before the end of the lesson I was sore. The next time at least I sat better.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I have a question!

According to my sources, mediaeval knights had their stirrups set up in a way that kept their legs long and straight. I'm not entirely sure whether this means the knight's legs were kept straight down, or raised somewhere just in front of the knight, like sitting on a flat surface.

However, the big problem I've just realised is that if the legs are kept straight, then how would a knight be able to match the rhythm of the horse with their body, especially in a trot and a canter? I seem to remember using bent knees to help maintain posture and rhythm, and that failure to do so would result in a sore bum!

Yet how would a mediaeval knight be able to match the rhythm of their horse, in different gaits, if they cannot use their legs for support? Is it the case that their legs are somewhat forward, and therefore they lift themselves slightly, useful the saddle pommel, to keep rhythm?

Am a little foxed about this, but I've just come to a section where knowing is essential, and I wasn't planning on another horse riding trip until after Spring! Even then, I doubt they'd let me mess with the stirrups for research purposes!

OK, Brian first.

The answer you need is that the legs would be stretched down towards the ground, not forwards as though sitting on a flat surface. If you look on YouTube for footage of advanced dressage riders such as Carl Hester and Charlotte DuJardin you will notice that they also ride with what is called a "long leg".

What you were taught is to put your body weight in the stirrups to save your poor little lilly-white butt from excessive impacts, whereas a top class, experienced rider, such as Charlotte or a medieval knight would be well able to ride with no stirrups at all (probably NOT whilst wearing full armour!) as they have developed a feel for the horses's movements, know as a "secure seat". Because a knight wielding a broadsword/lance/mace needs a good grip and low centre of gravity it would help him to ride with stirrups as long as reasonably possible. My daughter sometimes rides her horse with no saddle, bridle or anything other than a rope around the neck and she can do a dressage test or jump a course of show jumps like that, stopping and changing pace as necessary. Everything is done through the balance on the horse's back, legs, and sometimes (I think, watching from the ground) sheer telepathy.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Apologies for the double post.

You'll have to get your own armour and pony to experiment ...

Anyway, I'm here with a horse question relating to my WIP.

A party of 6 travelling light (say little more than some water, maybe some oats, one change of clothes, no bedrolls, no tents, no food, no armour.) six horses, so no remounts.
At some point both nights (maybe after 2 to 3 hours) they have a rendezvous and swap ALL the horses with fresh ones (three of the people changed too) AND get six extra horses.
End of summer, neither cold at night (5 C), nor hot during day ( 21 C).
Travelling at night on mostly on decent roads but maybe 1/4 is open grazed land (so no long grass, bushes etc).
Only a couple of hours daylight travel after first night, they started at dusk, in the first daytime, they rest in an Inn and set off at dusk on six fresh horses.
Two to three hours after dark they swap three people and have twelve fresh horses again, like 1st night
After 2nd night they travel on a poorer route, but it's a sort of bridle path that doesn't have wheeled traffic, till late afternoon.
Let's assume mostly flat and last day is mostly gentle downhill or flat.

How far could they have travelled assuming they ride as fast is sensible?

I'm guessing they'd be lucky to average 6km per hour?
Is 120km possible in the two nights, early hours one morning and till late afternoon in second day? I suspect even with so many horse changes, that might be optimistic.
Assume there are suitable places to water horses as often as needed and horses get some oats or something on the journey. So if my count is correct the 6 people have ridden 36 horses. Three people were troopers (four different lots), three are some of my important people (Teenagers, an Elf, Dwarf and my human like Faerie) getting escorted from A to B.
The eldest Teenager, an Elf girl has never ridden before, never even been on anything other than a wagon, once. I suspect she is very sore even by the 1st rendezvous and totally wrecked?

I was about 12 when I had my first riding lesson and I think even before the end of the lesson I was sore. The next time at least I sat better.

You might find this site useful: http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730

I don't agree with all this site's figures, based on my own experiences, but if you work from it I doubt if anyone would challenge you too seriously.

In my distant youth I have ridden a single horse about 35 miles (roughly 56km) in a day in similar conditions to those you describe with very little problem. She did most of it at trot and canter and barely broke a sweat, as fresh when she got home as she was when she set out (unlike me). I could quite possibly have repeated that the next day without either of us feeling too many ill effects, but she was a part-Arab horse, a breed known for stamina and endurance, and I was an experienced rider. We were both very fit and healthy (those were the days).

This link might also be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_riding

 

[Brian G Turner]

a medieval knight would be well able to ride with no stirrups at all

Excellent - so the long-stirrups methods sounds like something only an experienced rider would do. That helps loads.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

ridden a single horse about 35 miles (roughly 56km) in a day in similar conditions to those you describe with very little problem.

Thanks.
Great, so with the remounts and fresh horses etc, more than 120km in perhaps 26 hours of time actually riding in the two days will be feasible.
A brand new "rider" though would be very sore with maybe 1st 26hrs riding in less than 40 hr period, split across 6 different horses.

"secure seat".

Is that the much urged "hold on with your knees, not hands" shouted at us every other minute at the beginning?
Though I may be remembering wrong, it was long ago.

From your link:

Each Mongol soldier typically maintained 3 or 4 horses. Changing horses often allowed them to travel at high speed for days without stopping or wearing out the animals. Their ability to live off the land, and in extreme situations off their animals (mare's milk especially), made their armies far less dependent on the traditional logistical apparatus of agrarian armies. In some cases, as during the invasion of Hungary in early 1241, they covered up to 100 miles (160 km) per day, which was unheard of by other armies of the time.

So actually with my changes of horses, favourable terrain etc, even 200km might be possible in the two days (actually two nights and 2/3rds of a day). I don't specify a distance, but if I do a map, then it gives an idea of scale.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

A brand new "rider" though would be very sore with maybe 1st 26hrs riding in less than 40 hr period, split across 6 different horses.

Yes, and for a beginner rider there will be a totally different type of motion to get used to with each new horse, whereas a more experienced rider will be more able to quickly adapt. Some horses have a short, choppy, bouncy stride; some have a long, springy stride, etc.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

totally different type of motion to get used to with each new horse,

Great, I was hoping that all the horse changes (while nice for the horses) would make it worse.
She doesn't complain though, so the others assume she's fine.

 

[jastius]

A link to a cartographer's thread on the subject of how far a horse can travel...
http://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730

During the mongol invasion of Hungary in 1245, each mongol soldier kept four horses for trading off their mount for a fresher one.
The army typically covered 160 km in a day.
Your Tenderfoots if female might be on a jennet with a greatly cushioned palliester type of sidesaddley thing.
Oh, and there is evidence of ladies wearing string bikini bottom type undies just like the guys did in medieval times

http://rosaliegilbert.com/underpants.html

 

[Hex]

An inexperienced rider will hurt like nothing on earth the day after riding all day (though the stiffness might start coming on in the evening). It's your thighs, mainly, and your bum, but it kind of feels like you're in pain all over.

I have memories. And that was from when I was a teenager, so I assume it would be worse now.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Your Tenderfoots if female might be on a jennet with a greatly cushioned palliester type of sidesaddley thing.
Oh, and there is evidence of ladies wearing string bikini bottom type undies just like the guys did in medieval times

Yes, I remember the original Bra article. It seems they are "unmentionables" because people didn't write about them much. Also artists mostly painted people fully clothed or naked.

The Faerie will not be making any concessions for an arrogant Elf. (though she's actually about the only Elf that isn't arrogant. The other two teens are experienced riders, a Dwarf lad and Faerie lad). The Faerie are the most human sized and like people in this not quite like our world.

I'd forgotten about side saddles. But anyway, I think they don't bother with them, by instead having suitable clothing. Also the people arranging the horses are only told three "people" to be conveyed urgently and secretly. No names, sex, species or description.

 

[The Judge]

According to my sources, mediaeval knights had their stirrups set up in a way that kept their legs long and straight. I'm not entirely sure whether this means the knight's legs were kept straight down, or raised somewhere just in front of the knight, like sitting on a flat surface.

I can't help with the mechanics which Kerry has handled so well, but by coincidence I was looking through a couple of new book purchases and saw some pictures of exactly that straight leg which might be of interest. The first was from a book about manuscript illumination and is from the Edward IV Roll, the picture at the top here http://www.freelibrary.org/images/oldmedieval/bigscans/01a_big.jpg

Then a more general book had some pages of hunting illustrations:

But I'm sure I've seen 15th and 16th century pictures where the legs are held in a position we would consider more normal. I'll have a hunt around and see if I can find them.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Yep, that sounds like what I originally imagined, TJ - but looking at those pictures, I can picture a good rider using that slight forward angle to lift themselves from the saddle using their leg muscles, rather than knees, which is what I suspect Kylara was trying to explain.

Great to see them illustrated, btw - much appreciated that you took the time to add the images.

 

[Toby Frost]

Apologies if this has been raised before.

In A Game of Thrones, there's a moment at a tournament where the Knight of Flowers confuses Gregor Clegane's horse by riding a horse that's in heat. Would this work? I've also heard - I think it was in Poul Anderson's "On Thud and Blunder", but I'm not sure - that a male horse wouldn't accept a woman rider if it was that time of the month. Is this right?

 

[Kylara]

Stallions can be affected by mares in season, but most are very well trained and a mare in season nearby shouldn't do anything it shouldn't (unless poorly trained) do around mares not in season. Stallions tend to have different routines and equipment (bridles etc) for their different bits of their life. So one set for riding and one set for covering. They are trained to behave and be mannerly at all times from when they are young so they don't become unmanageable. So whilst it might happen, a well trained stallion shouldn't really be massively upset unless the mare is displaying right in front of it (not likely in joust tournament). I would be more concerned to be riding the mare to be honest, some mares in season can be evil (and others more so )

In regards to your latter question. Not true. Some horses (either sex) don't like particular people or men/women/children which is always fun to deal with. A mare I work with hates children and men and becomes a completely different horse around them to when she is around women. But never noticed any problems with female riders not being able to ride a horse, due to horse freaking out because it was that time of the month

 

[Venusian Broon]

Apologies if this has been raised before.

In A Game of Thrones, there's a moment at a tournament where the Knight of Flowers confuses Gregor Clegane's horse by riding a horse that's in heat. Would this work? I've also heard - I think it was in Poul Anderson's "On Thud and Blunder", but I'm not sure - that a male horse wouldn't accept a woman rider if it was that time of the month. Is this right?

I have a dim memory of a (probably fanciful) story that when the first crusaders met the Turks in the field for the first time (must be the battle of Dorylaeum) The Normans and French all rode Stallions and the Turks, being steppe peoples, all rode mares - who apparently were in heat and this lead to complications in trying to control the horses on both sides...

However I can't find any proper source that says this or what it meant in terms of the battle.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Some horses (either sex) don't like particular people or men/women/children

Your reply is exactly:
1) What logic and common sense would say, (a) due to humans wrong species and (b) Training. Badly trained dogs "attack" anyone's leg and are only affected by canines in heat.
2) Training, Training ...

There is a lot of apocryphal nonsense about lots of stuff:

Normans and French all rode Stallions and the Turks, being steppe peoples, all rode mares - who apparently were in heat and this lead to complications in trying to control the horses on both sides

I just read Josephine Tey's Brat Farrar Lots of horsey stuff, inc a horse that thinks it's fun to scrape riders off! Eeek!. She did know about horses, teaching and schools. She consulted with real police person for her Police procedures.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I admire our local horse gurus.
I remember at the vet marvelling how cheap the treatment of our guinea pig (cavy) was compared to a dog. Really it seems to be scale based on size. The cost of the vet for a horse is awesome in comparison.

I'd love a pony, but for horse mad Limerick, I'm neither poor enough nor rich enough.
I thought of the dedicated horsey people as I read this:
I am handmaiden to a foul-mouthed member of the royal family

 

[Cathbad]

inc a horse that thinks it's fun to scrape riders off! Eeek

I had a horse that would try this. Took a while, but he learned to stop it.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I thought of the dedicated horsey people as I read this:
I am handmaiden to a foul-mouthed member of the royal family

I can so relate to this article. We have two ex-racehorses and this exactly describes them both. They are the most beautiful, responsive animals in creation until something goes wrong -- and it does. A lot. I believe one of them has a chair on the Board of PetPlan (the horsey insurance company) after the vast amount they've had to pay out on vet fees for her various injuries and illnesses. The other one is currently hopping lame. It's probably a bruised foot, because he's a bit of a wimp, but it could just as easily be something extremely expensive. Both have a home with us until their dying day, and they know it.

The other three are not quite so aristocratic, but it doesn't stop them getting injuries or being complete brats from time to time when the mood takes them. One of these was the horse that broke Katrina's pelvis in three places last August (mind you, she's half thoroughbred and related to old Hoppalong Cassidy with the bruised foot, so who knows?).

Thanks for the link, Ray.

 

[Kylara]

Haha very amusing. (But I'm quite tempted to ask if said TB has been scoped for ulcers, what with the weaving and the windsucking/cribbing )

My tiny retired pony costs 2.5k a year all in, and he does nothing but eat grass and chill. He does have sweet itch though, and he is very non injury prone. Though he did get himself tangled up in fence post and electric fencing a couple of weeks ago - cue non horsey neighbour banging on our door screaming "his head has come off! It's come off and he stuck on a post!" which caused mass panic until I got to the field and saw he had escaped his strip into the big field with rotton posts, had been ithcing his head, got his hood caught, pulled at it, casuing it to come off and as it is attached to his body rug the neck bit had been pulled onto his nose, looking indeed like he had no head, and in rubbing on the post it had snapped and he had popped his foot through the electric rope, luckily not tight, but that combined with being blinded by the neck bit of his rug being over his eyes he was stood at the far end of the field, looking for all the world like a headless horse stuck on a post. A quick untangle later and a bit of cold hosing on the fetlock to reduce a little bit of bruising and he was right as rain!

I very much wish I had taken a picture, but obviously didn't think of that at the time!

Some poor horses seem to be forever breaking, and once the insurance puts exclusions on the policies! Oh my, does the money vanish fast.

Bruised soles are the worst, can never tell if just a bruised sole, or if something more expensive!